[DRAFT] Board report

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[DRAFT] Board report

garydgregory
Here is my draft of our board report. As I was travelling last month, I was
unable to take the time to compile it, so I am making it available for this
month's board meeting. I plan on publishing this report tomorrow (Tuesday).

## Description:
- The Apache Commons project focuses on all aspects of reusable Java
components.

- The Apache Commons components are widely used in many projects, both
within
Apache and without. Any ASF committer can commit to Apache Commons.

- The last report was on December 21, 2016.

## Issues:
 - There are no issues that requires the board's attention this quarter.

## Activity:
 - The project is active with seven (7) releases this reporting period.

 - We released one new component: Apache Commons Text 1.0,
   a library focused on algorithms working on strings.

 - Commons RDF has graduated from the Apache Incubator and is now a
   component of the Apache Commons project.

## Health report:
 - Most components in Commons are mature, but are still actively maintained
   (7 releases). The dev list is active. JIRA is active. Speed of responses
   to users is reasonable in most cases. We have 2 new PMC member, and
   Commons is still open to any Apache Committer.
 - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache Commons
   Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further development is
   expected.
 - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math 4. There
   is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but no clear
   concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail. There is a
   proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math depend on
   Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the corresonding
   Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing list.

## PMC changes:

 - Currently 36 PMC members.
 - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months
 - Last PMC addition was Bruno P. Kinoshita on Wed Oct 26 2016

## Committer base changes:

 - Currently 145 committers.
 - New commmitters:
    - Bernd Porr was added as a committer on Tue Jan 31 2017
    - Raymond DeCampo was added as a committer on Wed Jan 25 2017
    - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
2017

## Releases:

 - Apache Commons CLI 1.4 was released on Sun Mar 12 2017
 - Apache Commons CONFIGURATION 2.1.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
 - Apache Commons JCS 2.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
 - Apache Commons NET 3.6 was released on Tue Feb 14 2017
 - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0 was released on Fri Mar 10 2017
 - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0-BETA-1 was released on Wed Feb 08 2017
 - Apache Commons VALIDATOR 1.6 was released on Mon Feb 20 2017

## JIRA activity:

 - 173 JIRA tickets created in the last 3 months
 - 173 JIRA tickets closed/resolved in the last 3 months

Gary Gregory
Apache Commons Chair

--
E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email]
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AW: [DRAFT] Board report

Jan Matèrne (jhm)
Maybe add a note about moving Commons Modeler to dormant?

Jan


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Gary Gregory [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. April 2017 09:09
> An: Commons Developers List
> Betreff: [DRAFT] Board report
>
> Here is my draft of our board report. As I was travelling last month, I
> was unable to take the time to compile it, so I am making it available
> for this month's board meeting. I plan on publishing this report
> tomorrow (Tuesday).
>
> ## Description:
> - The Apache Commons project focuses on all aspects of reusable Java
> components.
>
> - The Apache Commons components are widely used in many projects, both
> within Apache and without. Any ASF committer can commit to Apache
> Commons.
>
> - The last report was on December 21, 2016.
>
> ## Issues:
>  - There are no issues that requires the board's attention this
> quarter.
>
> ## Activity:
>  - The project is active with seven (7) releases this reporting period.
>
>  - We released one new component: Apache Commons Text 1.0,
>    a library focused on algorithms working on strings.
>
>  - Commons RDF has graduated from the Apache Incubator and is now a
>    component of the Apache Commons project.
>
> ## Health report:
>  - Most components in Commons are mature, but are still actively
> maintained
>    (7 releases). The dev list is active. JIRA is active. Speed of
> responses
>    to users is reasonable in most cases. We have 2 new PMC member, and
>    Commons is still open to any Apache Committer.
>  - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache
> Commons
>    Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further development
> is
>    expected.
>  - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math 4.
> There
>    is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but no
> clear
>    concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail. There is
> a
>    proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math depend
> on
>    Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the corresonding
>    Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing list.
>
> ## PMC changes:
>
>  - Currently 36 PMC members.
>  - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months
>  - Last PMC addition was Bruno P. Kinoshita on Wed Oct 26 2016
>
> ## Committer base changes:
>
>  - Currently 145 committers.
>  - New commmitters:
>     - Bernd Porr was added as a committer on Tue Jan 31 2017
>     - Raymond DeCampo was added as a committer on Wed Jan 25 2017
>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
> 2017
>
> ## Releases:
>
>  - Apache Commons CLI 1.4 was released on Sun Mar 12 2017
>  - Apache Commons CONFIGURATION 2.1.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
>  - Apache Commons JCS 2.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
>  - Apache Commons NET 3.6 was released on Tue Feb 14 2017
>  - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0 was released on Fri Mar 10 2017
>  - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0-BETA-1 was released on Wed Feb 08 2017
>  - Apache Commons VALIDATOR 1.6 was released on Mon Feb 20 2017
>
> ## JIRA activity:
>
>  - 173 JIRA tickets created in the last 3 months
>  - 173 JIRA tickets closed/resolved in the last 3 months
>
> Gary Gregory
> Apache Commons Chair
>
> --
> E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email] Java Persistence
> with Hibernate, Second Edition
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617290459/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1617290459&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregor
> y-20&linkId=cadb800f39946ec62ea2b1af9fe6a2b8>
>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1617290459>
> JUnit in Action, Second Edition
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182021/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182021&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregor
> y-20&linkId=31ecd1f6b6d1eaf8886ac902a24de418%22>
>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182021>
> Spring Batch in Action
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182951/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182951&linkCode=%7B%7BlinkCode%7D%
> 7D&tag=garygregory-
> 20&linkId=%7B%7Blink_id%7D%7D%22%3ESpring+Batch+in+Action>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182951>
> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> Home: http://garygregory.com/
> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory


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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

garydgregory
Hm... did you read the draft?

Gary

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Jan Matèrne (jhm) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Maybe add a note about moving Commons Modeler to dormant?
>
> Jan
>
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Gary Gregory [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. April 2017 09:09
> > An: Commons Developers List
> > Betreff: [DRAFT] Board report
> >
> > Here is my draft of our board report. As I was travelling last month, I
> > was unable to take the time to compile it, so I am making it available
> > for this month's board meeting. I plan on publishing this report
> > tomorrow (Tuesday).
> >
> > ## Description:
> > - The Apache Commons project focuses on all aspects of reusable Java
> > components.
> >
> > - The Apache Commons components are widely used in many projects, both
> > within Apache and without. Any ASF committer can commit to Apache
> > Commons.
> >
> > - The last report was on December 21, 2016.
> >
> > ## Issues:
> >  - There are no issues that requires the board's attention this
> > quarter.
> >
> > ## Activity:
> >  - The project is active with seven (7) releases this reporting period.
> >
> >  - We released one new component: Apache Commons Text 1.0,
> >    a library focused on algorithms working on strings.
> >
> >  - Commons RDF has graduated from the Apache Incubator and is now a
> >    component of the Apache Commons project.
> >
> > ## Health report:
> >  - Most components in Commons are mature, but are still actively
> > maintained
> >    (7 releases). The dev list is active. JIRA is active. Speed of
> > responses
> >    to users is reasonable in most cases. We have 2 new PMC member, and
> >    Commons is still open to any Apache Committer.
> >  - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache
> > Commons
> >    Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further development
> > is
> >    expected.
> >  - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math 4.
> > There
> >    is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but no
> > clear
> >    concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail. There is
> > a
> >    proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math depend
> > on
> >    Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the corresonding
> >    Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing list.
> >
> > ## PMC changes:
> >
> >  - Currently 36 PMC members.
> >  - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months
> >  - Last PMC addition was Bruno P. Kinoshita on Wed Oct 26 2016
> >
> > ## Committer base changes:
> >
> >  - Currently 145 committers.
> >  - New commmitters:
> >     - Bernd Porr was added as a committer on Tue Jan 31 2017
> >     - Raymond DeCampo was added as a committer on Wed Jan 25 2017
> >     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
> > 2017
> >
> > ## Releases:
> >
> >  - Apache Commons CLI 1.4 was released on Sun Mar 12 2017
> >  - Apache Commons CONFIGURATION 2.1.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
> >  - Apache Commons JCS 2.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
> >  - Apache Commons NET 3.6 was released on Tue Feb 14 2017
> >  - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0 was released on Fri Mar 10 2017
> >  - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0-BETA-1 was released on Wed Feb 08 2017
> >  - Apache Commons VALIDATOR 1.6 was released on Mon Feb 20 2017
> >
> > ## JIRA activity:
> >
> >  - 173 JIRA tickets created in the last 3 months
> >  - 173 JIRA tickets closed/resolved in the last 3 months
> >
> > Gary Gregory
> > Apache Commons Chair
> >
> > --
> > E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email] Java Persistence
> > with Hibernate, Second Edition
> > <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617290459/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> > =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1617290459&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregor
> > y-20&linkId=cadb800f39946ec62ea2b1af9fe6a2b8>
> >
> > <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> > 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1617290459>
> > JUnit in Action, Second Edition
> > <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182021/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> > =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182021&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregor
> > y-20&linkId=31ecd1f6b6d1eaf8886ac902a24de418%22>
> >
> > <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> > 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182021>
> > Spring Batch in Action
> > <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182951/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp
> > =1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182951&linkCode=%7B%7BlinkCode%7D%
> > 7D&tag=garygregory-
> > 20&linkId=%7B%7Blink_id%7D%7D%22%3ESpring+Batch+in+Action>
> > <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-
> > 20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182951>
> > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> > Home: http://garygregory.com/
> > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--
E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email]
Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617290459/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1617290459&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=cadb800f39946ec62ea2b1af9fe6a2b8>

<http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1617290459>
JUnit in Action, Second Edition
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182021/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182021&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=31ecd1f6b6d1eaf8886ac902a24de418%22>

<http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182021>
Spring Batch in Action
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182951/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182951&linkCode=%7B%7BlinkCode%7D%7D&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=%7B%7Blink_id%7D%7D%22%3ESpring+Batch+in+Action>
<http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182951>
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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

Benedikt Ritter-4
In reply to this post by garydgregory
Hello Gary,

The report looks good to me. Thank you for preparing it.

Benedikt

> Am 11.04.2017 um 09:09 schrieb Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>:
>
> Here is my draft of our board report. As I was travelling last month, I was
> unable to take the time to compile it, so I am making it available for this
> month's board meeting. I plan on publishing this report tomorrow (Tuesday).
>
> ## Description:
> - The Apache Commons project focuses on all aspects of reusable Java
> components.
>
> - The Apache Commons components are widely used in many projects, both
> within
> Apache and without. Any ASF committer can commit to Apache Commons.
>
> - The last report was on December 21, 2016.
>
> ## Issues:
> - There are no issues that requires the board's attention this quarter.
>
> ## Activity:
> - The project is active with seven (7) releases this reporting period.
>
> - We released one new component: Apache Commons Text 1.0,
>   a library focused on algorithms working on strings.
>
> - Commons RDF has graduated from the Apache Incubator and is now a
>   component of the Apache Commons project.
>
> ## Health report:
> - Most components in Commons are mature, but are still actively maintained
>   (7 releases). The dev list is active. JIRA is active. Speed of responses
>   to users is reasonable in most cases. We have 2 new PMC member, and
>   Commons is still open to any Apache Committer.
> - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache Commons
>   Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further development is
>   expected.
> - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math 4. There
>   is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but no clear
>   concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail. There is a
>   proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math depend on
>   Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the corresonding
>   Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing list.
>
> ## PMC changes:
>
> - Currently 36 PMC members.
> - No new PMC members added in the last 3 months
> - Last PMC addition was Bruno P. Kinoshita on Wed Oct 26 2016
>
> ## Committer base changes:
>
> - Currently 145 committers.
> - New commmitters:
>    - Bernd Porr was added as a committer on Tue Jan 31 2017
>    - Raymond DeCampo was added as a committer on Wed Jan 25 2017
>    - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
> 2017
>
> ## Releases:
>
> - Apache Commons CLI 1.4 was released on Sun Mar 12 2017
> - Apache Commons CONFIGURATION 2.1.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
> - Apache Commons JCS 2.1 was released on Sat Feb 04 2017
> - Apache Commons NET 3.6 was released on Tue Feb 14 2017
> - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0 was released on Fri Mar 10 2017
> - Apache Commons TEXT 1.0-BETA-1 was released on Wed Feb 08 2017
> - Apache Commons VALIDATOR 1.6 was released on Mon Feb 20 2017
>
> ## JIRA activity:
>
> - 173 JIRA tickets created in the last 3 months
> - 173 JIRA tickets closed/resolved in the last 3 months
>
> Gary Gregory
> Apache Commons Chair
>
> --
> E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email]
> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617290459/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1617290459&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=cadb800f39946ec62ea2b1af9fe6a2b8>
>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1617290459>
> JUnit in Action, Second Edition
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182021/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182021&linkCode=as2&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=31ecd1f6b6d1eaf8886ac902a24de418%22>
>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182021>
> Spring Batch in Action
> <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935182951/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1935182951&linkCode=%7B%7BlinkCode%7D%7D&tag=garygregory-20&linkId=%7B%7Blink_id%7D%7D%22%3ESpring+Batch+in+Action>
> <http:////ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=garygregory-20&l=am2&o=1&a=1935182951>
> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> Home: http://garygregory.com/
> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory


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[ALL] The Commons Math issue (Was: [DRAFT] Board report)

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by garydgregory
Hello.

Gary,

Thank you for mentioning the CM issue.
But...

> [...]
>
> ## Health report:
>  [...]
>  - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math
> 4. There
>    is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but
> no clear
>    concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail.

... This being an Apache community, is everyone at ease with using
"likely" in the above sentence?

>    There is a
>    proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math
> depend on
>    Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the
> corresonding
>    Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing
> list.

Several board reports have mentioned the "growing pains" and lack of
of consensus.
At what point are they going to reflect that the problem must be dealt
with?

PMC members do not have time to contribute to all components, but is
it fine that this obvious fact prevents further development of some
components (including _parts_ of current CM) that could be maintained
with much less manpower?  [IMHO, the development of "Commons RNG"
somewhat proved that last point.]

Must do-ocracy prevail or not?  And, if not, why?  [Let the board
answer if the PMC members won't.]

My proposal concerning the future of the CM codebase has been on the
table for almost a year, without anyone else working on the alternative
that had been discussed (that is, keep working on CM "as-is"), as can
be viewed from the lack of communication with users (cf. JIRA issues).

Readers of the ML could infer that I tried to come closer to a
"compromise", by suggesting a release of CM 4.0 (thus mitigating my
disappointment that a large part of that code would still have no
support from any of the "Commons" active developers).
However, the compromise only makes sense if those on the other side
of argument will participate in its implementation.


Thanks for your attention,
Gilles

>
> [...]


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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

Stefan Bodewig
In reply to this post by garydgregory
On 2017-04-11, Gary Gregory wrote:

> ## Committer base changes:

...

>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
> 2017

(Missing from LDAP people) ? Actually, I don't recall a committer vote
in April and neither does my mail archive.

Rest looks good, thanks

Stefan

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AW: [DRAFT] Board report

Jan Matèrne (jhm)
In reply to this post by garydgregory
> Hm... did you read the draft?
> Gary

Jep, but it seems that I have missed a line ;)

Jan


> > > ## Health report:
> > >  - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache Commons
> > >    Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further development is
> > >    expected.


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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

sebb-2-2
In reply to this post by Stefan Bodewig
On 11 April 2017 at 13:16, Stefan Bodewig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2017-04-11, Gary Gregory wrote:
>
>> ## Committer base changes:
>
> ...
>
>>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
>> 2017
>
> (Missing from LDAP people) ? Actually, I don't recall a committer vote
> in April and neither does my mail archive.

That was rdecampo, whose id was changed to raydecampo.
There was a short period when both ids were listed in the commons LDAP
committer group
It looks as though reporter.a.o got confused.

> Rest looks good, thanks
>
> Stefan
>
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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue (Was: [DRAFT] Board report)

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Gilles <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello.
>
> Gary,
>
> Thank you for mentioning the CM issue.
> But...
>
> [...]
>>
>> ## Health report:
>>  [...]
>>  - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math 4.
>> There
>>    is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but no
>> clear
>>    concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail.
>>
>
> ... This being an Apache community, is everyone at ease with using
> "likely" in the above sentence?
>
>    There is a
>>    proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math depend on
>>    Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the corresonding
>>    Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing list.
>>
>
> Several board reports have mentioned the "growing pains" and lack of
> of consensus.
> At what point are they going to reflect that the problem must be dealt
> with?
>

If you are looking to involve the board, then you are asking for a
sledgehammer. I do not see any rules or guidelines being broken, or the
Apache Way being blocked. I do not see egregious behavior or disrespectful
communication. I see busy people doing what they want when the want in all
of Commons, respectfully and diligently.


>
> PMC members do not have time to contribute to all components, but is
> it fine that this obvious fact prevents further development of some
> components (including _parts_ of current CM) that could be maintained
> with much less manpower?  [IMHO, the development of "Commons RNG"
> somewhat proved that last point.]
>

For me, the PMC's main job is to vote on releases. PMC members do not have
to code or participate in the bits and bytes of all components. Sure, it
helps to know that some PMC members agree with one's direction, which
should facilitate pushing releases through. We all know the voting rules by
this point, the barrier to release is not very high IMO.

Commons is more open than any other Apache Project, anyone with commit
rights can commit to Commons. That's pretty open. Our job is to attract
like minded folks for the components we need help.


>
> Must do-ocracy prevail or not?  And, if not, why?  [Let the board
> answer if the PMC members won't.]
>

Yes doing the work gets you most of way there. Proposing a path forward and
engaging fellow developers gets you most of the way there. Hopefully PMC
members can offer some wisdom along the way and point out what they think
is best. No one is malicious here. But, we all have POVs of course ;-)

Discussions, building consensus, over time, is what I feel will get Math 4
out of the mud.


> My proposal concerning the future of the CM codebase has been on the
> table for almost a year, without anyone else working on the alternative
> that had been discussed (that is, keep working on CM "as-is"), as can
> be viewed from the lack of communication with users (cf. JIRA issues).
>
> Readers of the ML could infer that I tried to come closer to a
> "compromise", by suggesting a release of CM 4.0 (thus mitigating my
> disappointment that a large part of that code would still have no
> support from any of the "Commons" active developers).
> However, the compromise only makes sense if those on the other side
> of argument will participate in its implementation.
>

I appreciate you efforts over time. Let's keep things moving. Hopefully
more folks will become engaged.

Gary


>
> Thanks for your attention,
> Gilles
>
>
>> [...]
>>
>
>
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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Jan Matèrne (jhm)
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Jan Matèrne (jhm) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > Hm... did you read the draft?
> > Gary
>
> Jep, but it seems that I have missed a line ;)
>

:-)

Gary


>
> Jan
>
>
> > > > ## Health report:
> > > >  - Since no development has happened for a long while, the Apache
> Commons
> > > >    Modeler component has been moved to dormant. No further
> development is
> > > >    expected.
>
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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

garydgregory
In reply to this post by sebb-2-2
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11 April 2017 at 13:16, Stefan Bodewig <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 2017-04-11, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >
> >> ## Committer base changes:
> >
> > ...
> >
> >>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
> >> 2017
> >
> > (Missing from LDAP people) ? Actually, I don't recall a committer vote
> > in April and neither does my mail archive.
>
> That was rdecampo, whose id was changed to raydecampo.
> There was a short period when both ids were listed in the commons LDAP
> committer group
> It looks as though reporter.a.o got confused.
>

Thank you Sebb! I'll update that section.

Gary


>
> > Rest looks good, thanks
> >
> > Stefan
> >
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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue (Was: [DRAFT] Board report)

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by garydgregory
Hi Gary.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:56:09 -0700, Gary Gregory wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Gilles
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> Thank you for mentioning the CM issue.
>> But...
>>
>> [...]
>>>
>>> ## Health report:
>>>  [...]
>>>  - We are still experiencing some growing pains toward Commons Math
>>> 4.
>>> There
>>>    is a backlog of issues in JIRA (not unlike other components) but
>>> no
>>> clear
>>>    concensus in the community. Do-ocracy is likely to prevail.
>>>
>>
>> ... This being an Apache community, is everyone at ease with using
>> "likely" in the above sentence?
>>
>>    There is a
>>>    proposal on how to move the code base forward and having Math
>>> depend on
>>>    Commons Numbers and Commons RNG, and then dropping the
>>> corresonding
>>>    Math code. All of which can be seen on the developer's mailing
>>> list.
>>>
>>
>> Several board reports have mentioned the "growing pains" and lack of
>> of consensus.
>> At what point are they going to reflect that the problem must be
>> dealt
>> with?
>>
>
> If you are looking to involve the board, then you are asking for a
> sledgehammer. I do not see any rules or guidelines being broken, or
> the
> Apache Way being blocked. I do not see egregious behavior or
> disrespectful
> communication. I see busy people doing what they want when the want
> in all
> of Commons, respectfully and diligently.

I do not make any generalization, but I asked a simple question.
Unless I'm mistaken, no PMC member answered.

>>
>> PMC members do not have time to contribute to all components, but is
>> it fine that this obvious fact prevents further development of some
>> components (including _parts_ of current CM) that could be
>> maintained
>> with much less manpower?  [IMHO, the development of "Commons RNG"
>> somewhat proved that last point.]
>>
>
> For me, the PMC's main job is to vote on releases. PMC members do not
> have
> to code or participate in the bits and bytes of all components. Sure,
> it
> helps to know that some PMC members agree with one's direction, which
> should facilitate pushing releases through. We all know the voting
> rules by
> this point, the barrier to release is not very high IMO.

The barrier might not be high but it is sufficient to prevent the
viability of the CM codebase.
I know that my opinion is dismissed by some PMC members, but the
issue is that the "do-ocracy" is not applied.

>
> Commons is more open than any other Apache Project, anyone with
> commit
> rights can commit to Commons. That's pretty open. Our job is to
> attract
> like minded folks for the components we need help.

I've noted that ignoring bug reporters, not keeping codes up-to-date,
and not making releases (even though work has been done) is damaging.
No acknowledgment, no alternative proposed.

>>
>> Must do-ocracy prevail or not?  And, if not, why?  [Let the board
>> answer if the PMC members won't.]
>>
>
> Yes doing the work gets you most of way there. Proposing a path
> forward and
> engaging fellow developers gets you most of the way there. Hopefully
> PMC
> members can offer some wisdom along the way and point out what they
> think
> is best. No one is malicious here. But, we all have POVs of course
> ;-)

Opinions opposing mine have been given.
But no action taken.

> Discussions, building consensus, over time, is what I feel will get
> Math 4
> out of the mud.

Slogging through mud is an apt image!
For at least 14 months.
Again, development is possible, but the PMC does not support it,
which should be its role IMO.

>> My proposal concerning the future of the CM codebase has been on the
>> table for almost a year, without anyone else working on the
>> alternative
>> that had been discussed (that is, keep working on CM "as-is"), as
>> can
>> be viewed from the lack of communication with users (cf. JIRA
>> issues).
>>
>> Readers of the ML could infer that I tried to come closer to a
>> "compromise", by suggesting a release of CM 4.0 (thus mitigating my
>> disappointment that a large part of that code would still have no
>> support from any of the "Commons" active developers).
>> However, the compromise only makes sense if those on the other side
>> of argument will participate in its implementation.
>>
>
> I appreciate you efforts over time. Let's keep things moving.
> Hopefully
> more folks will become engaged.

Wishful thinking.
And then?

How much more "efforts" must I put in order to deserve the
application of "do-ocracy" (in the sense that the PMC members
_support_ work being done, even if the route taken is not
their preferred choice)?

Everyone is entitled to his opinions.
What I ask is whether, in this particular situation, the PMC
is doing all it could/should.
I know that I cannot request time or interest from anyone; but
isn't the role of a PMC to solve a _project management_ issue?

I wish the report to suggest that advice from outside "Commons"
might be useful to get "things moving".


Thanks,
Gilles

>
> Gary
>
>
>>
>> Thanks for your attention,
>> Gilles
>>
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>


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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

garydgregory
In reply to this post by garydgregory
The report has been submitted. Thank you all for your feedback.

Gary

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 11 April 2017 at 13:16, Stefan Bodewig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 2017-04-11, Gary Gregory wrote:
>> >
>> >> ## Committer base changes:
>> >
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
>> >> 2017
>> >
>> > (Missing from LDAP people) ? Actually, I don't recall a committer vote
>> > in April and neither does my mail archive.
>>
>> That was rdecampo, whose id was changed to raydecampo.
>> There was a short period when both ids were listed in the commons LDAP
>> committer group
>> It looks as though reporter.a.o got confused.
>>
>
> Thank you Sebb! I'll update that section.
>
> Gary
>
>
>>
>> > Rest looks good, thanks
>> >
>> > Stefan
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue (Was: [DRAFT] Board report)

Emmanuel Bourg-3
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
Gilles,

I admit I'm not sure to understand what you are complaining about. Last
year you complained that you were the last one maintaining commons-math
and that a monolithic component was unsustainable. Since then we got new
contributors and smaller components have been spun off commons-math.
What do you expect now that is blocked by the PMC?

Emmanuel Bourg

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Re: [DRAFT] Board report

sebb-2-2
In reply to this post by sebb-2-2
On 11 April 2017 at 16:36, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11 April 2017 at 13:16, Stefan Bodewig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 2017-04-11, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>
>>> ## Committer base changes:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>     - (Missing from LDAP people) was added as a committer on Thu Apr 06
>>> 2017
>>
>> (Missing from LDAP people) ? Actually, I don't recall a committer vote
>> in April and neither does my mail archive.
>
> That was rdecampo, whose id was changed to raydecampo.
> There was a short period when both ids were listed in the commons LDAP
> committer group
> It looks as though reporter.a.o got confused.

FTR: reporter.a.o was behaving OK.

Turns out that rdecampo was temporarily added to commons LDAP and the
UID was deleted before removing the commons entry.
Hence the missing name.

The app also waits a couple of days before dropping entries from
groups (it has gone now).
The report was generated in that period.

>> Rest looks good, thanks
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
Hi Emmanuel.

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:03:05 +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Gilles,
>
> I admit I'm not sure to understand what you are complaining about.
> Last
> year you complained that you were the last one maintaining
> commons-math

It was not a complaint, but a (sad) fact.

> and that a monolithic component was unsustainable.

Not a complaint, but my analysis of the actual situation:
   http://markmail.org/message/ye6wvqvlvnqe4qrp

> Since then we got new
> contributors and smaller components have been spun off commons-math.

Yes; and it is good per se, of course.  Unforunately, it didn't change
the Commons Math issue: it's still unmaintained, and from what I
observe
on JIRA, it's not going to improve with time (I said that much one year
ago and I was right, in hindsight).

> What do you expect now that is blocked by the PMC?

With "Commons RNG", I think that I showed that the "new, small, focused
components" route is the right one.[1]

Such components can be used and contributed to easily. For example,
because
there are much fewer parts, there is much less risk that pulling on a
thread
will lead to sweeping changes (into parts where one can be clueless
about
the implications).
Also, a focused component can be maintained by a single developer, if
need
be.  Looking at the evolution of the older/mature components, it seems
that
it is most often the case nowadays.

CM can be further recycled in that way. I tried to (re-)start a
discussion
about it:
   http://markmail.org/thread/j5532mnsrgu4jzkv

Last time I acted (to request a "git" repository from INFRA), you
(IIRC,
pardon me if I'm wrong) complained ;-) that it had not been agreed
upon...

IMO, there is a contradiction in the PMC being both passive (not
contributing
to the overall health of CM[2]) and active (in preventing "do-ocracy"
wrt the
choice of a roadmap for CM[3]).

Moreover, the lack of interest shown by the PMC:
   http://markmail.org/thread/pgrgnnwjnqrtzrw3
   http://markmail.org/message/ulxcoqd663lgvul3
is a worrying indication that any further work can be doomed to not get
the
minimal support for an official release, even if there would be no
"technical
reason"[4] to prevent such release.


Thanks for your attention[5],
Gilles

[1] It's the right size and scope: I now agree with the PMC members who
     did not see it useful to have its current modules as separate
     components.
[2] Assuming that a dead/zombie project cannot be healthy. ;-)
[3] My roadmap is totally conservative: CM code that is not moved to
     another component, stays in CM "master" branch as is, for anyone to
     pick up later. The alternative is not conservative, and could lead
     to changes that will prove wrong later on.
[4] Apart from the plenty of unresolved issues (cf. JIRA).
[5] As usual, sorry for the long email, but trying to keep messages
     short does not seem to help either in conveying correctly what I
     perceive as a need for PMC action...

>
> Emmanuel Bourg


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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue

Stefan Bodewig
[sorry for the comments from the peanut gallery, I haven't been
following MATH and likely will never contribute anything substantial]

On 2017-04-12, Gilles wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:03:05 +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:

>> What do you expect now that is blocked by the PMC?

> With "Commons RNG", I think that I showed that the "new, small,
> focused components" route is the right one.[1]

I agree.

> Last time I acted (to request a "git" repository from INFRA), you
> (IIRC, pardon me if I'm wrong) complained ;-) that it had not been
> agreed upon...

The details are escaping me, maybe you need to state your desire to
break a new piece out of MATH as a separate component first and give
people time to comment before requesting a repo for it? Alternatively
start inside the sandbox (I hope nobody has ever stopped anybody from
creating a sandbox component - but I may certainly have missed it).

> IMO, there is a contradiction in the PMC being both passive (not
> contributing to the overall health of CM[2]) and active (in preventing
> "do-ocracy" wrt the choice of a roadmap for CM[3]).

You can count myself into the camp of people who are willing to let a
component go dormant if it doesn't get maintained. But I'm unlikely to
go actively looking for unmaintained components. Looking at the commits
of commons-math it seems to get some love from time to time, not enough
that anybody would want to cut a release, though.

I'm not sure we need a roadmap. IMHO if you can identify a viable subset
of MATH you want to maintain as a separate component, then you should be
able to do just that. At the same time this shouldn't prevent anybody
else from working on MATH if they really want to.

> Moreover, the lack of interest shown by the PMC:
>   http://markmail.org/thread/pgrgnnwjnqrtzrw3

proves that nobody apart from Rob is willing to cut a MATH release right
now. The same would likely be true for a few other components as well
(the last DISCOVERY release is almost six years old) and it doesn't
worry me at all. It only says "MATH may be a candidate for going
dormant" to me.

This is a PMC member view and certainly not the view of a MATH user. But
you are asking for a PMC opinion.

> is a worrying indication that any further work can be doomed to not
> get the minimal support for an official release, even if there would
> be no "technical reason"[4] to prevent such release.

Not really. I regularly ask for feedback on COMPRESS without getting any
responses but still manage to collect enough votes when I want to carve
a new release. Fortunately there are a few "hero"s (many thanks to you!)
on this list who manage to review RCs and cast votes for almost every
candidate thrown their way, I'm not one of them.

Stefan

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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue

Emmanuel Bourg-3
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
On 04/12/2017 02:56 PM, Gilles wrote:

> Yes; and it is good per se, of course.  Unforunately, it didn't change
> the Commons Math issue: it's still unmaintained, and from what I observe
> on JIRA, it's not going to improve with time (I said that much one year
> ago and I was right, in hindsight).

Ok, then let's move commons-math to dormant and redirect the users to
Hipparchus.


> Last time I acted (to request a "git" repository from INFRA), you (IIRC,
> pardon me if I'm wrong) complained ;-) that it had not been agreed upon...

Wasn't this because you wanted to create a new component before
considering other options like creating a submodule of an existing
component?


> Moreover, the lack of interest shown by the PMC
> is a worrying indication that any further work can be doomed to not get the
> minimal support for an official release, even if there would be no
> "technical reason"[4] to prevent such release.

I wouldn't worry about that, even if few members are actively
contributing to the code there are enough people ready to review and
vote on the releases.


> [1] It's the right size and scope: I now agree with the PMC members who
>     did not see it useful to have its current modules as separate
>     components.

Good, and it could be the same with CM for the parts that may not fit
well in a separate component.


> [5] As usual, sorry for the long email, but trying to keep messages
>     short does not seem to help either in conveying correctly what I
>     perceive as a need for PMC action...

Thanks!

Emmanuel Bourg

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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by Stefan Bodewig
Hi Stefan.

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:22:23 +0200, Stefan Bodewig wrote:

> [sorry for the comments from the peanut gallery, I haven't been
> following MATH and likely will never contribute anything substantial]
>
> On 2017-04-12, Gilles wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:03:05 +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>
>>> What do you expect now that is blocked by the PMC?
>
>> With "Commons RNG", I think that I showed that the "new, small,
>> focused components" route is the right one.[1]
>
> I agree.

Thank you!

>> Last time I acted (to request a "git" repository from INFRA), you
>> (IIRC, pardon me if I'm wrong) complained ;-) that it had not been
>> agreed upon...
>
> The details are escaping me, maybe you need to state your desire to
> break a new piece out of MATH as a separate component first and give
> people time to comment before requesting a repo for it? Alternatively
> start inside the sandbox (I hope nobody has ever stopped anybody from
> creating a sandbox component - but I may certainly have missed it).

There has been much inconclusive discussion (opinion vs opinion) that
only actual work can eventually dispel doubt.
[Reminder: a big part of "Commons RNG" was developed inside CM and most
PMC people did not even know about it (although I was opening JIRA
issues
all along.  Hence creating a "git" repository is not futile if it can
raise awareness.]

>> IMO, there is a contradiction in the PMC being both passive (not
>> contributing to the overall health of CM[2]) and active (in
>> preventing
>> "do-ocracy" wrt the choice of a roadmap for CM[3]).
>
> You can count myself into the camp of people who are willing to let a
> component go dormant if it doesn't get maintained. But I'm unlikely
> to
> go actively looking for unmaintained components. Looking at the
> commits
> of commons-math it seems to get some love from time to time, not
> enough
> that anybody would want to cut a release, though.

You demonstrate that one's impression can be quite wrong: a _lot_ of
work has been done (since at least 4 years) on the branch that was
bound to become CM 4.0.  I'm inclined to think that it deserves more
than being thrown away.

The problem is that the sheer size of CM make it looks like negligible
quantity, when seen from the peanut gallery. ;-)

> I'm not sure we need a roadmap. IMHO if you can identify a viable
> subset
> of MATH you want to maintain as a separate component, then you should
> be
> able to do just that. At the same time this shouldn't prevent anybody
> else from working on MATH if they really want to.

Exactly (although the latter did not happen, and it's something for
the PMC to take into account when alternative are proposed).

>> Moreover, the lack of interest shown by the PMC:
>>   http://markmail.org/thread/pgrgnnwjnqrtzrw3
>
> proves that nobody apart from Rob is willing to cut a MATH release
> right
> now. The same would likely be true for a few other components as well
> (the last DISCOVERY release is almost six years old) and it doesn't
> worry me at all. It only says "MATH may be a candidate for going
> dormant" to me.

CM, yes; some of its packages and classes, definitely not (even though
a lot of work would be welcome to transition to the Java 8 era, and
make
the library as relevant as the good implementations it contains).

> This is a PMC member view and certainly not the view of a MATH user.
> But
> you are asking for a PMC opinion.

I hope that you can revise your opinion in light of the additional
info I've provided.

>> is a worrying indication that any further work can be doomed to not
>> get the minimal support for an official release, even if there would
>> be no "technical reason"[4] to prevent such release.
>
> Not really. I regularly ask for feedback on COMPRESS without getting
> any
> responses but still manage to collect enough votes when I want to
> carve
> a new release. Fortunately there are a few "hero"s (many thanks to
> you!)
> on this list who manage to review RCs and cast votes for almost every
> candidate thrown their way, I'm not one of them.

As you know, this CM issue has created a lot of grievance.

I do complain that the PMC did not fulfill its role, by not even
trying to safe-guard the "Commons" project's integrity.

I expect the "Commons" PMC to _support_ the people who work here
(cf. "git log").


Thanks,
Gilles

>
> Stefan
>


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Re: [ALL] The Commons Math issue

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:56:23 +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:

> On 04/12/2017 02:56 PM, Gilles wrote:
>
>> Yes; and it is good per se, of course.  Unforunately, it didn't
>> change
>> the Commons Math issue: it's still unmaintained, and from what I
>> observe
>> on JIRA, it's not going to improve with time (I said that much one
>> year
>> ago and I was right, in hindsight).
>
> Ok, then let's move commons-math to dormant and redirect the users to
> Hipparchus.

Emmanuel,

Do you actually prefer advertizing a non-Apache project rather than
having the PMC support its own developers in any which way it could?

I sure hope that I'm not the only one here who would not like it.

>> Last time I acted (to request a "git" repository from INFRA), you
>> (IIRC,
>> pardon me if I'm wrong) complained ;-) that it had not been agreed
>> upon...
>
> Wasn't this because you wanted to create a new component before
> considering other options like creating a submodule of an existing
> component?

Modularization is the solution to a different problem.

In this case, it would not make CM more supported (since the PMC
would not be agree to exclude part of the code from the release).

>
>> Moreover, the lack of interest shown by the PMC
>> is a worrying indication that any further work can be doomed to not
>> get the
>> minimal support for an official release, even if there would be no
>> "technical reason"[4] to prevent such release.
>
> I wouldn't worry about that, even if few members are actively
> contributing to the code there are enough people ready to review and
> vote on the releases.

How can you be so sure? The last releases did not elicit an awful lot
of votes; and that is for components that do not raise objections about
their mere existence.

>
>> [1] It's the right size and scope: I now agree with the PMC members
>> who
>>     did not see it useful to have its current modules as separate
>>     components.
>
> Good, and it could be the same with CM for the parts that may not fit
> well in a separate component.

It's not the same (cf. above).

"Commons RNG" made several modules of related stuff ("focused" scope)
out of a subset of 2 CM packages (initially).

CM is not focused; it's a mixed bag of different
  * subject domains,
  * designs,
  * performances.

It suffers from the same problems which "Lang" started to see (and
that led to the creation of "Commons Text") just a lot worse, because
it is bigger.

Gilles

>
>> [5] As usual, sorry for the long email, but trying to keep messages
>>     short does not seem to help either in conveying correctly what I
>>     perceive as a need for PMC action...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Emmanuel Bourg
>


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