OGNL as a part of Commons

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OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
Hi all,

I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
(https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
) into Commons project?

As I know OGNL is used by few ASF projects (Struts 2, Tapestry) and
right now it's homeless project. It's very hard to prepare a new
release, to update documentation, and so on. It would be much better
to include it in Commons and base on ASF infrastructure. Right now I'm
the only contributor to that project and I've been talking with the
authors of OGNL and they agreed to move OGNL to ASF.

What do you think?


Kind regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
2010/12/13 sebb <[hidden email]>:
>> OGNL is an Expression Language like UEL, it has some nice features
>> like calling statics or using constructors. It's used internally by
>> Struts 2 to evaluate user expressions and not only in JSP but in any
>> other place.
>
> In which case it seems to be similar to Commons JEXL in approach and scope?

Yep, probably.

> Can OGNL be used as a javax.script (JSR-223) language?

Right now no, but in the future...


Regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

sebb-2-2
On 14 December 2010 06:38, Lukasz Lenart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/12/13 sebb <[hidden email]>:
>>> OGNL is an Expression Language like UEL, it has some nice features
>>> like calling statics or using constructors. It's used internally by
>>> Struts 2 to evaluate user expressions and not only in JSP but in any
>>> other place.
>>
>> In which case it seems to be similar to Commons JEXL in approach and scope?
>
> Yep, probably.
>
>> Can OGNL be used as a javax.script (JSR-223) language?
>
> Right now no, but in the future...

So does it offer anything that JEXL does not?

>
> Regards
> --
> Łukasz
> + 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
> Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl
>
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
2010/12/14 sebb <[hidden email]>:
> So does it offer anything that JEXL does not?

I think no, it looks like JEXL2 is even much better than OGNL. I don't
know JEXL2 so deep, but with OGNL you can create objects directly ("o
= new Object()") and you can call methods with parameters
("foo.doit(o)").


Kind regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Henri Yandell
In reply to this post by Łukasz Lenart
+1.

Just like to point out that duplication of featureset is not an issue
in Commons.

Hen

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Lukasz Lenart
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
> (https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> ) into Commons project?
>
> As I know OGNL is used by few ASF projects (Struts 2, Tapestry) and
> right now it's homeless project. It's very hard to prepare a new
> release, to update documentation, and so on. It would be much better
> to include it in Commons and base on ASF infrastructure. Right now I'm
> the only contributor to that project and I've been talking with the
> authors of OGNL and they agreed to move OGNL to ASF.
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> Kind regards
> --
> Łukasz
> + 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
> Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Jörg Schaible-3
In reply to this post by Łukasz Lenart
Hi Lukasz,

Lukasz Lenart wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
> (https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> ) into Commons project?

What happened to OpenSymphony that you cannot use their infrastructure
anymore?

- Jörg


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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
2010/12/15 Jörg Schaible <[hidden email]>:
> What happened to OpenSymphony that you cannot use their infrastructure
> anymore?

I don't know, there was some rumor about domain owners or so. Also
other projects were moved out from OpenSymphony: WebWork became Struts
2, XWork was moved to ASF and it's a part of Struts, Quartz as well.


Regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Simone Tripodi
Hi all guys,
just a small idea about it: BeanUtils is already maintaining something
similar[1] to OGNL, that BTW is more sophisticated, so I propose to
evaluate OGNL be accepted as part of BeanUtils, it should be a very
good contribution that would improve the commons component.
WDYT?
Simo

[1] http://s.apache.org/TqG

http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Lukasz Lenart
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/12/15 Jörg Schaible <[hidden email]>:
>> What happened to OpenSymphony that you cannot use their infrastructure
>> anymore?
>
> I don't know, there was some rumor about domain owners or so. Also
> other projects were moved out from OpenSymphony: WebWork became Struts
> 2, XWork was moved to ASF and it's a part of Struts, Quartz as well.
>
>
> Regards
> --
> Łukasz
> + 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
> Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
Hi,

So, where I should start ?


Kind regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Simone Tripodi-2
Hi all guys,
I personally like the proposal and think that OGNL is a nice piece of
software that Commons could only benefit if it will join.
As I previously expressed, IMHO OGNL could be merged to BeanUtils that
already supports the same features, but in a less sophisticated way;
BeanUtils could only than benefit from this merge.
Moreover the OGNL project is widely adopted in sever closed/oss
projects, I don't see any potential risk of failure. And it is already
licensed under ASL2.0.
What are your thoughts about it? I'm available on helping Lucasz for
the move and the OGNL community.
Looking forward to see your feedbacks, have a nice day,
Simo

http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Lukasz Lenart
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> So, where I should start ?
>
>
> Kind regards
> --
> Łukasz
> + 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
> Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Antonio Petrelli
In reply to this post by Łukasz Lenart
2010/12/13 Lukasz Lenart <[hidden email]>:
> I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
> (https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> ) into Commons project?

Personally I would like to see it as a TLP.
AFAIK Apache foundation likes to see one project for one piece of
software, Commons is an exception.
(I would like to see Commons Math as TLP but this is another story :-D ).
IMHO, OGNL is not "common", it is a powerfui expression language.
Another option would be the code donation to the nearest project, that
I think it is Struts.
Anyway, ask the Incubator mailing list, they might help you deciding.

Antonio

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Antonio Petrelli
2011/3/1 Antonio Petrelli <[hidden email]>:

> 2010/12/13 Lukasz Lenart <[hidden email]>:
>> I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
>> (https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
>> ) into Commons project?
>
> Personally I would like to see it as a TLP.
> AFAIK Apache foundation likes to see one project for one piece of
> software, Commons is an exception.
> (I would like to see Commons Math as TLP but this is another story :-D ).
> IMHO, OGNL is not "common", it is a powerfui expression language.
> Another option would be the code donation to the nearest project, that
> I think it is Struts.
> Anyway, ask the Incubator mailing list, they might help you deciding.

There is another problem: is OpenSymphony willing to donate the code to Apache?
It's not only a problem of "forking", because the entire copyright
will pass to Apache, at least for the donated code as it is (the
copyright will remain to OpenSymphony until the act of donation).
If not, you cannot donate/incubate at Apache. There are other options
though, e.g. forking and apache-extras.

Antonio

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
2011/3/1 Antonio Petrelli <[hidden email]>:
> There is another problem: is OpenSymphony willing to donate the code to Apache?
> It's not only a problem of "forking", because the entire copyright
> will pass to Apache, at least for the donated code as it is (the
> copyright will remain to OpenSymphony until the act of donation).
> If not, you cannot donate/incubate at Apache. There are other options
> though, e.g. forking and apache-extras.

OGNL was moved to GitHub some time ago and right now it's more or less
ownerless. Before I've started asking you guys, I had been talking to
two main people behind OGNL and they had approved my idea to move OGNL
under ASF umbrella. So, I can send an official request to them to
donate OGNL to ASF if it's needed.


Kind regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Simone Tripodi-2
In reply to this post by Antonio Petrelli
From Commons HP[1] "The Commons is an Apache project focused on all
aspects of reusable Java components" here we use to speak about Math,
Digester, BeanUtils, ... as components and not projects, there are no
exceptions you mentioned.

Moreover, since EL[2] and JXPATH[3] found their home here at commons,
I don't see a different reason for OGNL to live elsewhere.

The legal issue is a problem that needs to be seriously taken in
consideration, BTW AFAIK OGNL left OpenSymphony for a new place[4]
(domain seems to be expired) and Lukasz is the only one OGNL
maintainer - please Lucasz correct me if I'm wrong.

Simo

[1] http://commons.apache.org/
[2] http://commons.apache.org/el/
[3] http://commons.apache.org/jxpath/
[4] http://www.ognl.org/

http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Antonio Petrelli
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/3/1 Antonio Petrelli <[hidden email]>:
>> 2010/12/13 Lukasz Lenart <[hidden email]>:
>>> I want to ask you all, is it possible to include OGNL
>>> (https://github.com/jkuhnert/ognl , http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
>>> ) into Commons project?
>>
>> Personally I would like to see it as a TLP.
>> AFAIK Apache foundation likes to see one project for one piece of
>> software, Commons is an exception.
>> (I would like to see Commons Math as TLP but this is another story :-D ).
>> IMHO, OGNL is not "common", it is a powerfui expression language.
>> Another option would be the code donation to the nearest project, that
>> I think it is Struts.
>> Anyway, ask the Incubator mailing list, they might help you deciding.
>
> There is another problem: is OpenSymphony willing to donate the code to Apache?
> It's not only a problem of "forking", because the entire copyright
> will pass to Apache, at least for the donated code as it is (the
> copyright will remain to OpenSymphony until the act of donation).
> If not, you cannot donate/incubate at Apache. There are other options
> though, e.g. forking and apache-extras.
>
> Antonio
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

henrib
In reply to this post by Simone Tripodi-2
Howdy;
I looked at OGNL a while ago and can't fully remember why I ended up using JEXL (probably because it seemed simpler). Anyway, OGNL seems very powerful and expressive.
What about trying to merge OGNL & JEXL2 (instead of BeanUtils)? I'm pretty sure the core JEXL2 features (introspector - method /static / ctor calls, arithmetic) could be leveraged easily. The main differences would be in the upper parts I guess (syntax, constructs).
It probably could help define a better scripting engine and language in the future rather than overlapping ones.
Thoughts ?
Henrib
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Simone Tripodi-2
Hi Henri,
it would be fine for me, I initially suggested BeanUtils because
already support a similar feature[1], but JEXL2 would work as well.
Thanks for your feedbacks, looking forward to collect enough thoughts
to call for a vote :)
Simo

http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:37 PM, henrib <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Howdy;
> I looked at OGNL a while ago and can't fully remember why I ended up using
> JEXL (probably because it seemed simpler). Anyway, OGNL seems very powerful
> and expressive.
> What about trying to merge OGNL & JEXL2 (instead of BeanUtils)? I'm pretty
> sure the core JEXL2 features (introspector - method /static / ctor calls,
> arithmetic) could be leveraged easily. The main differences would be in the
> upper parts I guess (syntax, constructs).
> It probably could help define a better scripting engine and language in the
> future rather than overlapping ones.
> Thoughts ?
> Henrib
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-commons.680414.n4.nabble.com/OGNL-as-a-part-of-Commons-tp3085026p3330241.html
> Sent from the Commons - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

jodastephen
Based on what I know of OGNL, it is/was reasonably well used. Trying
to merge it into another project doesn't help those existing users.

The question is what are the author(s) of OGNL looking for? A home for
maintainance? The Apache brand? To reinvigorate it? The latter fits
with a merger into other projects. The former should make commons ask
if it wants to become a home for maintainance mode (not necessarily a
bad thing).

I'm certainly arguing against a straight push into BeanUtils or JEXL.

Stephen


On 1 March 2011 17:48, Simone Tripodi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Henri,
> it would be fine for me, I initially suggested BeanUtils because
> already support a similar feature[1], but JEXL2 would work as well.
> Thanks for your feedbacks, looking forward to collect enough thoughts
> to call for a vote :)
> Simo
>
> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
> http://www.99soft.org/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:37 PM, henrib <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Howdy;
>> I looked at OGNL a while ago and can't fully remember why I ended up using
>> JEXL (probably because it seemed simpler). Anyway, OGNL seems very powerful
>> and expressive.
>> What about trying to merge OGNL & JEXL2 (instead of BeanUtils)? I'm pretty
>> sure the core JEXL2 features (introspector - method /static / ctor calls,
>> arithmetic) could be leveraged easily. The main differences would be in the
>> upper parts I guess (syntax, constructs).
>> It probably could help define a better scripting engine and language in the
>> future rather than overlapping ones.
>> Thoughts ?
>> Henrib
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://apache-commons.680414.n4.nabble.com/OGNL-as-a-part-of-Commons-tp3085026p3330241.html
>> Sent from the Commons - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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>
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Paul Benedict
Struts 2 is a big consumer of OGNL. The Struts community already consumed
XWork's IP and now own it. Aren't both of those projects from OpenSymphony?
If so, I would say it should go over to Struts.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Stephen Colebourne <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Based on what I know of OGNL, it is/was reasonably well used. Trying
> to merge it into another project doesn't help those existing users.
>
> The question is what are the author(s) of OGNL looking for? A home for
> maintainance? The Apache brand? To reinvigorate it? The latter fits
> with a merger into other projects. The former should make commons ask
> if it wants to become a home for maintainance mode (not necessarily a
> bad thing).
>
> I'm certainly arguing against a straight push into BeanUtils or JEXL.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> On 1 March 2011 17:48, Simone Tripodi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Henri,
> > it would be fine for me, I initially suggested BeanUtils because
> > already support a similar feature[1], but JEXL2 would work as well.
> > Thanks for your feedbacks, looking forward to collect enough thoughts
> > to call for a vote :)
> > Simo
> >
> > http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
> > http://www.99soft.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:37 PM, henrib <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Howdy;
> >> I looked at OGNL a while ago and can't fully remember why I ended up
> using
> >> JEXL (probably because it seemed simpler). Anyway, OGNL seems very
> powerful
> >> and expressive.
> >> What about trying to merge OGNL & JEXL2 (instead of BeanUtils)? I'm
> pretty
> >> sure the core JEXL2 features (introspector - method /static / ctor
> calls,
> >> arithmetic) could be leveraged easily. The main differences would be in
> the
> >> upper parts I guess (syntax, constructs).
> >> It probably could help define a better scripting engine and language in
> the
> >> future rather than overlapping ones.
> >> Thoughts ?
> >> Henrib
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> http://apache-commons.680414.n4.nabble.com/OGNL-as-a-part-of-Commons-tp3085026p3330241.html
> >> Sent from the Commons - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Simone Tripodi-2
@Stephen: OGNL is currently ownerless, as Lukasz reported, and he's
the only one maintainer on github. Original authors agreed on donating
the to the ASF, I suppose to provide OGNL community the
support/maintainance that deserves. Someone else didn't agree already
on taking in consideration yet another expression language, due to EL
and JEXL already on Commons, that's why we proposed BeanUtils/JEXL. I
would be the first happy on having it as a proper component.

@Paul: sounds reasonable IMHO, even if the OGNL project looks more
like a general purpose expression language, not strictly related to
Struts. Personally there are still good reason to propose OGNL here at
Commons, even if the Struts path would be acceptable


http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Paul Benedict <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Struts 2 is a big consumer of OGNL. The Struts community already consumed
> XWork's IP and now own it. Aren't both of those projects from OpenSymphony?
> If so, I would say it should go over to Struts.
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Stephen Colebourne <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Based on what I know of OGNL, it is/was reasonably well used. Trying
>> to merge it into another project doesn't help those existing users.
>>
>> The question is what are the author(s) of OGNL looking for? A home for
>> maintainance? The Apache brand? To reinvigorate it? The latter fits
>> with a merger into other projects. The former should make commons ask
>> if it wants to become a home for maintainance mode (not necessarily a
>> bad thing).
>>
>> I'm certainly arguing against a straight push into BeanUtils or JEXL.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>> On 1 March 2011 17:48, Simone Tripodi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hi Henri,
>> > it would be fine for me, I initially suggested BeanUtils because
>> > already support a similar feature[1], but JEXL2 would work as well.
>> > Thanks for your feedbacks, looking forward to collect enough thoughts
>> > to call for a vote :)
>> > Simo
>> >
>> > http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
>> > http://www.99soft.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:37 PM, henrib <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> Howdy;
>> >> I looked at OGNL a while ago and can't fully remember why I ended up
>> using
>> >> JEXL (probably because it seemed simpler). Anyway, OGNL seems very
>> powerful
>> >> and expressive.
>> >> What about trying to merge OGNL & JEXL2 (instead of BeanUtils)? I'm
>> pretty
>> >> sure the core JEXL2 features (introspector - method /static / ctor
>> calls,
>> >> arithmetic) could be leveraged easily. The main differences would be in
>> the
>> >> upper parts I guess (syntax, constructs).
>> >> It probably could help define a better scripting engine and language in
>> the
>> >> future rather than overlapping ones.
>> >> Thoughts ?
>> >> Henrib
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> View this message in context:
>> http://apache-commons.680414.n4.nabble.com/OGNL-as-a-part-of-Commons-tp3085026p3330241.html
>> >> Sent from the Commons - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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Re: OGNL as a part of Commons

Łukasz Lenart
In reply to this post by jodastephen
2011/3/1 Stephen Colebourne <[hidden email]>:
> Based on what I know of OGNL, it is/was reasonably well used. Trying
> to merge it into another project doesn't help those existing users.

Yep, that's true

> The question is what are the author(s) of OGNL looking for? A home for
> maintainance? The Apache brand? To reinvigorate it? The latter fits
> with a merger into other projects. The former should make commons ask
> if it wants to become a home for maintainance mode (not necessarily a
> bad thing).

A home, right now OGNL is homeless and ownerless. As I know, Struts 2
and Tapestry are both using it extensively.


Kind regards
--
Łukasz
+ 48 606 323 122 http://www.lenart.org.pl/
Kapituła Javarsovia http://javarsovia.pl

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