[PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

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[PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
Hi All,

I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".

The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.

This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.

For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.SetDefaultLocaleTestRule

I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
Default Charset Rule.

Thoughts?

Gary
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

kenneth mcfarland
Sounds like a logical category of reusable components. I'm a lurker but I
think that is a very very cool idea!

On Nov 3, 2017 4:11 PM, "Gary Gregory" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>
> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>
> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>
> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>
> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> Default Charset Rule.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Gary
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Matt Sicker
In reply to this post by garydgregory
I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.

Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
would be nice.

On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>
> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>
> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>
> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>
> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> Default Charset Rule.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Gary
>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Bruno P. Kinoshita-3
+1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
CheersBruno

      From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
 To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
   
I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.

Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
would be nice.

On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>
> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>
> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>
> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>
> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> Default Charset Rule.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Gary
>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>


   
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Romain Manni-Bucau
Looks like a good idea but wonder if it fits commons. I kind of see a lot
of modules already so maybe incubator?

Ps: if interesting I m happy to give
https://github.com/rmannibucau/rule-them-all and help integrating it with
junit5 too


Le 4 nov. 2017 05:45, "Bruno P. Kinoshita"
<[hidden email]> a écrit :

> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> CheersBruno
>
>       From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>  To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>  Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>  Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
>
> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
> would be nice.
>
> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> >
> > The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> >
> > This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> >
> > For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> >
> > I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > Default Charset Rule.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Gary
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
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AW: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Jan Matèrne (jhm)
+1.
But when we want to support JUnit4, JUnit5 and AssertJ maybe we could call that "Apache Commons Test" with three components.

Jan

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Romain Manni-Bucau [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 4. November 2017 08:45
> An: Bruno P. Kinoshita; Commons Developers List
> Betreff: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> Looks like a good idea but wonder if it fits commons. I kind of see a
> lot of modules already so maybe incubator?
>
> Ps: if interesting I m happy to give
> https://github.com/rmannibucau/rule-them-all and help integrating it
> with
> junit5 too
>
>
> Le 4 nov. 2017 05:45, "Bruno P. Kinoshita"
> <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> > CheersBruno
> >
> >       From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >  To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> >  Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> >
> > I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> > pulling in other related dependencies to complement the whole thing.
> > General resource management rules would be great, though, like the
> ones we have in Log4j.
> >
> > Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> > well would be nice.
> >
> > On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> > >
> > > The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit
> rules.
> > >
> > > This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> > >
> > > For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > > SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> > >
> > > I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a
> Set
> > > Default Charset Rule.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >
> >
> >


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Mark Thomas
In reply to this post by garydgregory
On 03/11/17 23:11, Gary Gregory wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".

-1 on the name. It is infringing.

"Apache Commons Tools for JUnit" would be fine. As would any similar
construction.


> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>
> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>
> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>
> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> Default Charset Rule.
>
> Thoughts?

No views either way on the rest of the proposal.

Mark

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Rob Tompkins
In reply to this post by Romain Manni-Bucau
+1. Seems like a good plan.

> On Nov 4, 2017, at 3:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looks like a good idea but wonder if it fits commons. I kind of see a lot
> of modules already so maybe incubator?
>
> Ps: if interesting I m happy to give
> https://github.com/rmannibucau/rule-them-all and help integrating it with
> junit5 too
>
>
> Le 4 nov. 2017 05:45, "Bruno P. Kinoshita"
> <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
>> CheersBruno
>>
>>      From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>> To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>>
>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
>>
>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
>> would be nice.
>>
>>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>>>
>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>>>
>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>>>
>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>>>
>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
>>> Default Charset Rule.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Mark Thomas
On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Mark Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/11/17 23:11, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>
> -1 on the name. It is infringing.
>
> "Apache Commons Tools for JUnit" would be fine. As would any similar
> construction.
>

OK, I'm not a fan of "tools", which for me would be command-line things;
how about"

- "Apache Commons for JUnit"
- "Apache Commons Add-ons for JUnit"
- "Apache Commons Extras for JUnit"
- ?

Gary

>
>
> > The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> >
> > This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> >
> > For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> >
> > I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > Default Charset Rule.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> No views either way on the rest of the proposal.
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Bruno P. Kinoshita-3
I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.

Gary

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> CheersBruno
>
>       From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>  To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>  Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>  Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
>
> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
> would be nice.
>
> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> >
> > The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> >
> > This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> >
> > For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> >
> > I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > Default Charset Rule.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Gary
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Pascal Schumacher
JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4 
for details.

Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:

> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
>
> Gary
>
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
>> CheersBruno
>>
>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>>
>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling in
>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General resource
>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
>>
>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as well
>> would be nice.
>>
>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>>>
>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>>>
>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>>>
>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>>>
>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
>>> Default Charset Rule.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>
>>


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> for details.


OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"

Gary


>
>
> Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
>
>> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
>> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
>> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
>> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
>>> CheersBruno
>>>
>>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>>>
>>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling
>>> in
>>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
>>> resource
>>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
>>>
>>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
>>> well
>>> would be nice.
>>>
>>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>>>>
>>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>>>>
>>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>>>>
>>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
>>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>>>>
>>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
>>>> Default Charset Rule.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Hasan Diwan
How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H

On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> > for details.
>
>
> OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
>
> Gary
>
>
> >
> >
> > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
> >
> >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
> >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> >>> CheersBruno
> >>>
> >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> >>>
> >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> pulling
> >>> in
> >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> >>> resource
> >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
> Log4j.
> >>>
> >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> >>> well
> >>> would be nice.
> >>>
> >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> >>>>
> >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> >>>>
> >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> >>>>
> >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> >>>> Default Charset Rule.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>> Gary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
>



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Bernd Eckenfels
I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak) can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.

Gruss
Bernd
--
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________________________________
From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
To: Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H

On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> > for details.
>
>
> OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
>
> Gary
>
>
> >
> >
> > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
> >
> >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
> >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> >>> CheersBruno
> >>>
> >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> >>>
> >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> pulling
> >>> in
> >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> >>> resource
> >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
> Log4j.
> >>>
> >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> >>> well
> >>> would be nice.
> >>>
> >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> >>>>
> >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> >>>>
> >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> >>>>
> >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> >>>> Default Charset Rule.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>> Gary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
>



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Oliver Heger-3


On 04.11.2017 17:58, Bernd Eckenfels wrote:
> I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak) can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.

We already had a Commons Test project. It has been moved to dormant, but
is not explicitly listed: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/commons/dormant/test/

I also like the idea and would prefer a broader scope with
general-purpose utilities for unit tests.

Oliver

>
> Gruss
> Bernd
> --
> http://bernd.eckenfels.net
> ________________________________
> From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H
>
> On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
>>> changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
>>> JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
>>> http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
>>> for details.
>>
>>
>> OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
>>>
>>>> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
>>>> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now (JUnit)
>>>> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
>>>> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
>>>>> CheersBruno
>>>>>
>>>>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>>>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>>>>>
>>>>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
>> pulling
>>>>> in
>>>>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
>>>>> resource
>>>>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
>> Log4j.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
>>>>> well
>>>>> would be nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
>>>>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
>>>>>> Default Charset Rule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> OpenPGP:
> https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> If you wish to request my time, please do so using
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Matt Sicker
In reply to this post by Bernd Eckenfels
+1 for a name like Commons Testing

On 4 November 2017 at 11:58, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list
> all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak)
> can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.
>
> Gruss
> Bernd
> --
> http://bernd.eckenfels.net
> ________________________________
> From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H
>
> On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> > > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> > > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> > > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> > > for details.
> >
> >
> > OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
> > >
> > >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> > >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now
> (JUnit)
> > >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> > >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> > >>> CheersBruno
> > >>>
> > >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> > >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> > >>>
> > >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> > pulling
> > >>> in
> > >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> > >>> resource
> > >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
> > Log4j.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> > >>> well
> > >>> would be nice.
> > >>>
> > >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit
> rules.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > >>>> Default Charset Rule.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thoughts?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gary
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> OpenPGP:
> https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> If you wish to request my time, please do so using
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
> Si vous voudrais faire connnaisance, allez a
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
>
> <https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> >Sent
> from my mobile device
> Envoye de mon portable
>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Bernd Eckenfels
So are you advocating for a multi-module project?

- commons-testing
- commons-testing-junit4
- commons-testing-junit5

?

Gary


On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list
> all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak)
> can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.
>
> Gruss
> Bernd
> --
> http://bernd.eckenfels.net
> ________________________________
> From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H
>
> On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> > > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> > > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> > > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> > > for details.
> >
> >
> > OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
> > >
> > >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> > >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now
> (JUnit)
> > >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> > >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> > >>> CheersBruno
> > >>>
> > >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> > >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> > >>>
> > >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> > pulling
> > >>> in
> > >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> > >>> resource
> > >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
> > Log4j.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> > >>> well
> > >>> would be nice.
> > >>>
> > >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit
> rules.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > >>>> Default Charset Rule.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thoughts?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gary
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> OpenPGP:
> https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> If you wish to request my time, please do so using
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
> Si vous voudrais faire connnaisance, allez a
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
>
> <https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> >Sent
> from my mobile device
> Envoye de mon portable
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Romain Manni-Bucau
+ commons-testing-testng probably

Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau |  Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn


2017-11-04 18:12 GMT+01:00 Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>:

> So are you advocating for a multi-module project?
>
> - commons-testing
> - commons-testing-junit4
> - commons-testing-junit5
>
> ?
>
> Gary
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list
>> all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak)
>> can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.
>>
>> Gruss
>> Bernd
>> --
>> http://bernd.eckenfels.net
>> ________________________________
>> From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
>> To: Commons Developers List
>> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>>
>> How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H
>>
>> On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
>> > [hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
>> > > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
>> > > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
>> > > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
>> > > for details.
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
>> >
>> > Gary
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
>> > >
>> > >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
>> > >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now
>> (JUnit)
>> > >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
>> > >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
>> > >>
>> > >> Gary
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
>> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
>> > >>> CheersBruno
>> > >>>
>> > >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>> > >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>> > >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
>> > >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
>> > pulling
>> > >>> in
>> > >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
>> > >>> resource
>> > >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
>> > Log4j.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
>> > >>> well
>> > >>> would be nice.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hi All,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit
>> rules.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
>> > >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
>> > >>>> Default Charset Rule.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Thoughts?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Gary
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> OpenPGP:
>> https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
>> If you wish to request my time, please do so using
>> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
>> Si vous voudrais faire connnaisance, allez a
>> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
>>
>> <https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
>> >Sent
>> from my mobile device
>> Envoye de mon portable
>>

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

Bernd Eckenfels
In reply to this post by garydgregory
Hello,

I would try to stick with a single artifact with optional dependencies to the Frameworks supported. If the Project becomes too specific/cumbersome in Terms of dependencies we might turn it into a Multi module build with a common and Framework specific part.

But my comment was more about the Name and the Mission and less about the maven structure.

Gruss
Bernd

Von: Gary Gregory
Gesendet: Samstag, 4. November 2017 18:12
An: Commons Developers List
Betreff: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

So are you advocating for a multi-module project?

- commons-testing
- commons-testing-junit4
- commons-testing-junit5

?

Gary


On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I like the idea (and prefer Commons Testing), for example a method to list
> all non-daemon threads after a test run (to see there is no resource leak)
> can be used independent of the Unit Test Framework.
>
> Gruss
> Bernd
> --
> http://bernd.eckenfels.net
> ________________________________
> From: Hasan Diwan <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:42:39 PM
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
>
> How about "Apache Commons Testing"? -- H
>
> On 4 November 2017 at 09:10, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Pascal Schumacher <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > JUnit 5 is not backwards compatible (Package/Annotation-Names have
> > > changed, Rules were replaced by a new extension model), but it can run
> > > JUnit 3 and JUnit 4 Tests if you add an additional dependency. See
> > > http://junit.org/junit5/docs/current/user-guide/#migrating-from-junit4
> > > for details.
> >
> >
> > OK, so "Apache Commons Extras for Junit 4"
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 04.11.2017 um 15:53 schrieb Gary Gregory:
> > >
> > >> I am assuming that JUnit 5 will be backward compatible with JUnit 4, I
> > >> might be wrong. I'd like to focus on a single dependency for now
> (JUnit)
> > >> and not do a multi-module project. If someone want to do the same for
> > >> TestNG, then have at it. KISS and small for 1.0.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Bruno P. Kinoshita <
> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> > >>> CheersBruno
> > >>>
> > >>>        From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> > >>>   Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> > >>>   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> > >>>
> > >>> I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about
> > pulling
> > >>> in
> > >>> other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> > >>> resource
> > >>> management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in
> > Log4j.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> > >>> well
> > >>> would be nice.
> > >>>
> > >>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit
> rules.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > >>>> SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > >>>> Default Charset Rule.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thoughts?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gary
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> OpenPGP:
> https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> If you wish to request my time, please do so using
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
> Si vous voudrais faire connnaisance, allez a
> http://bit.ly/hd1ScheduleRequest.
>
> <https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFEBAD7FFD041BBA1
> >Sent
> from my mobile device
> Envoye de mon portable
>

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Romain Manni-Bucau
On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Looks like a good idea but wonder if it fits commons. I kind of see a lot
> of modules already so maybe incubator?
>
> Ps: if interesting I m happy to give
> https://github.com/rmannibucau/rule-them-all and help integrating it with
> junit5 too
>

Thank you for pointing out your work.

I think we are going toward are multi-module project if only to manage
dependencies. I would not want to depend on commons-testing only to have a
ton of jars dragged in, optional or not. But I could see bringing in
commons-testing-ftp-server.

Gary


>
>
> Le 4 nov. 2017 05:45, "Bruno P. Kinoshita"
> <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > +1 for the idea and for looking at JUnit 5.x and maybe AssertJ.
> > CheersBruno
> >
> >       From: Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >  To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> >  Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2017 1:44 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Commons JUnit
> >
> > I certainly like the idea, especially if the docs are good about pulling
> in
> > other related dependencies to complement the whole thing. General
> resource
> > management rules would be great, though, like the ones we have in Log4j.
> >
> > Also, I haven't looked closely at it yet, but supporting JUnit 5.x as
> well
> > would be nice.
> >
> > On 3 November 2017 at 18:11, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I'd propose we start a new component called "Apache Commons JUnit".
> > >
> > > The goal would be to gather useful and reusable code like JUnit rules.
> > >
> > > This component would be focused on JUnit 4.x only.
> > >
> > > For example: org.apache.commons.collections4.junit.
> > > SetDefaultLocaleTestRule
> > >
> > > I have other rules stashed here and there as well, for example a Set
> > > Default Charset Rule.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
> >
> >
> >
>
12