Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Phil Steitz
On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
> suppose,

OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
repo.

Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?

Phil

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html


>  like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
>
> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
> what's under the hood.
>
> Gary
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
>>>
>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
>> wrapper
>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
>>
>> Phil
>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split into
>> an
>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
>> the
>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation module.
>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
>> that
>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
>>>
>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then a
>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
>>>
>>> 2c,
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>> Norman,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
>>>>> Pointing
>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
>>>> your
>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get folks
>>>> to
>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
>>>>> +1
>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
>>>>>
>>>> +1.
>>>>
>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description of
>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
>> regular
>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and you
>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and all
>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but simpler
>> (in
>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
>>>>
>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also the
>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly clicking
>> on
>>>> javadoc :)
>>>>
>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too complex,
>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
>> supporting,
>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
>>>>
>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
>>>>
>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
>>>> complex?].
>>>>
>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
>> with:
>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
>> own".
>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
>>>>
>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
>> that
>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
>>>>
>>>> Hen
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>



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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

dbrosIus
In reply to this post by norm-2
+1 and git please

-------- Original message --------
From: Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
Date: 10/25/2015  3:15 PM  (GMT-05:00)
To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
> suppose,

OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
repo.

Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?

Phil

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html


>  like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
>
> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
> what's under the hood.
>
> Gary
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
>>>
>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
>> wrapper
>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
>>
>> Phil
>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split into
>> an
>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
>> the
>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation module.
>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
>> that
>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
>>>
>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then a
>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
>>>
>>> 2c,
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>> Norman,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
>>>>> Pointing
>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
>>>> your
>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get folks
>>>> to
>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
>>>>> +1
>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
>>>>>
>>>> +1.
>>>>
>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description of
>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
>> regular
>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and you
>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and all
>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but simpler
>> (in
>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
>>>>
>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also the
>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly clicking
>> on
>>>> javadoc :)
>>>>
>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too complex,
>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
>> supporting,
>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
>>>>
>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
>>>>
>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
>>>> complex?].
>>>>
>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
>> with:
>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
>> own".
>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
>>>>
>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
>> that
>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
>>>>
>>>> Hen
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>



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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Javin Paul
Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could we
simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons itself?

Gayr

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Javin Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @ Siegfried Goeschl
>
> Having retired computer scientists turn to Open Source is great idea,
> nothing can beat experience and having them contributed to Apache or Github
> is simply awesome.
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Siegfried Goeschl <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Norman & Jeff,
> >
> > I skimmed through the email conversation ….
> >
> > * Personally I really like the idea that retired computer scientists turn
> > to Open Source :-)
> >
> > * Looking at the GitHub project I indeed see a cultural gap which needs
> be
> > closed to do meaningful Open Source work
> >
> > * I try to ignore the fact that you are well-regarded computer scientist
> > and I’m an unknown software developer :-)
> >
> > Having said that
> >
> > * no matter if you are joining Apache Commons or just live on GitHub -
> you
> > need a good introduction to the project (think of unique selling point).
> > Sit down and write a cool Markdown document to get people enthusiastic -
> > only enthusiastic people will use your contributions and maybe
> participate
> > later on.
> >
> > * there is a GitHub pull request out there from Dave Brosius - if you are
> > unhappy about it please comment it otherwise merge it with your repo.
> > Ignoring a pull request might be considered impolite :-)
> >
> > * you need to clean up the project - Maven build (I assume mostly done by
> > Dave Brosius), separate test folder, javadoc, site documentation and code
> > style - and this will take some (all, a lot of ) time and could/will be
> > frustrating since the bar is quite high at Apache Commons (and many other
> > FOSS communities).
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Siegfried Goeschl
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 24 Oct 2015, at 17:14, [hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > > My colleague, Jeff Rothenberg, and I are retired computer scientists
> and
> > are
> > > no strangers to regular expression theory and practice. Both of us have
> > used
> > > regular expressions for decades and have taught many other programmers
> > how to
> > > use them. Stephen Kleene (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cole_Kleene),
> > > the inventor of regular expressions and I
> > > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Shapiro) were both doctoral
> > students of
> > > Alonzo Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonzo_Church).
> Rothenberg
> > used
> > > SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 (more powerful than all but a few of the most
> recent
> > > versions of regular expressions) extensively in his graduate work in
> > > Artificial Intelligence in the late 1960 and early 1970s.
> > >
> > > In our experience, although skilled programmers can write regular
> > expressions
> > > that solve a wide range of problems, for all but the simplest tasks
> > regular
> > > expressions quickly become "write only". That is, once they have aged
> > for a
> > > while, no one other than their authors (and, in our experience, often
> > not even
> > > they) can understand them well enough to verify, modify, debug, or
> > maintain
> > > them without considerable effort. Analogous low-level programming
> > formalisms,
> > > such as machine code and assembly language, have been replaced by
> > > higher-level, more readable and modular languages to produce programs
> > that
> > > have proven easier and more cost-effective to debug, verify, maintain,
> > reuse,
> > > and extend.
> > >
> > > In a similar fashion, Naomi is a means of "taming" complex regular
> > > expressions, as well as offering an easier alternative for those who
> are
> > > unfamiliar with them. Naomi makes pattern matching programs more
> > readable,
> > > modular, and therefore verifiable, maintainable, and extensible. Naomi
> > > ultimately generates regular expressions, and it can do everything they
> > can
> > > do, but it provides a higher-level API that uses object-oriented
> > constructs to
> > > define complex, modular, parameterized patterns and subpatterns.
> > >
> > > Naomi's advantages over bare regular expressions become apparent only
> for
> > > larger scale pattern matching tasks. Whereas regular expressions are
> > highly
> > > compact and terse, this virtue becomes a vice for complex patterns.
> > Coupled
> > > with the extensive use of metacharacters and escape sequences, this
> > makes even
> > > moderately complex regular expressions effectively unreadable for all
> > but the
> > > most experienced and practiced regular expression programmers. Newer
> > features
> > > that go beyond the original regular expression formalism--such as
> namable
> > > groups, built-in names for common character classes, comments, and free
> > white
> > > space--make regular expressions less terse. But their use is not enough
> > to
> > > render complex regular expressions easily readable. These extensions
> are
> > > analogous to replacing binary machine language by assembly language
> > coding. It
> > > is only necessary to consider a complex problem--such as that of
> parsing
> > the
> > > e-mail date-time specification of RFC 2822 in src/DateTime.java--to
> > appreciate
> > > the obscurity of regular expressions and to understand Naomi's
> > advantages.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    Norman Shapiro
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> Javin
> http://javarevisited.blogspot.com/
> Twitter : https://twitter.com/javinpaul
> blog : http://java67.blogspot.com
> blog : http://savingsfunda.blogspot.com
>



--
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Phil Steitz
On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could we
> simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons itself?
I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
the Sandbox, IMO.

Phil

>
> Gayr
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Javin Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> @ Siegfried Goeschl
>>
>> Having retired computer scientists turn to Open Source is great idea,
>> nothing can beat experience and having them contributed to Apache or Github
>> is simply awesome.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Siegfried Goeschl <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Norman & Jeff,
>>>
>>> I skimmed through the email conversation ….
>>>
>>> * Personally I really like the idea that retired computer scientists turn
>>> to Open Source :-)
>>>
>>> * Looking at the GitHub project I indeed see a cultural gap which needs
>> be
>>> closed to do meaningful Open Source work
>>>
>>> * I try to ignore the fact that you are well-regarded computer scientist
>>> and I’m an unknown software developer :-)
>>>
>>> Having said that
>>>
>>> * no matter if you are joining Apache Commons or just live on GitHub -
>> you
>>> need a good introduction to the project (think of unique selling point).
>>> Sit down and write a cool Markdown document to get people enthusiastic -
>>> only enthusiastic people will use your contributions and maybe
>> participate
>>> later on.
>>>
>>> * there is a GitHub pull request out there from Dave Brosius - if you are
>>> unhappy about it please comment it otherwise merge it with your repo.
>>> Ignoring a pull request might be considered impolite :-)
>>>
>>> * you need to clean up the project - Maven build (I assume mostly done by
>>> Dave Brosius), separate test folder, javadoc, site documentation and code
>>> style - and this will take some (all, a lot of ) time and could/will be
>>> frustrating since the bar is quite high at Apache Commons (and many other
>>> FOSS communities).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 24 Oct 2015, at 17:14, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My colleague, Jeff Rothenberg, and I are retired computer scientists
>> and
>>> are
>>>> no strangers to regular expression theory and practice. Both of us have
>>> used
>>>> regular expressions for decades and have taught many other programmers
>>> how to
>>>> use them. Stephen Kleene (
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cole_Kleene),
>>>> the inventor of regular expressions and I
>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Shapiro) were both doctoral
>>> students of
>>>> Alonzo Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonzo_Church).
>> Rothenberg
>>> used
>>>> SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 (more powerful than all but a few of the most
>> recent
>>>> versions of regular expressions) extensively in his graduate work in
>>>> Artificial Intelligence in the late 1960 and early 1970s.
>>>>
>>>> In our experience, although skilled programmers can write regular
>>> expressions
>>>> that solve a wide range of problems, for all but the simplest tasks
>>> regular
>>>> expressions quickly become "write only". That is, once they have aged
>>> for a
>>>> while, no one other than their authors (and, in our experience, often
>>> not even
>>>> they) can understand them well enough to verify, modify, debug, or
>>> maintain
>>>> them without considerable effort. Analogous low-level programming
>>> formalisms,
>>>> such as machine code and assembly language, have been replaced by
>>>> higher-level, more readable and modular languages to produce programs
>>> that
>>>> have proven easier and more cost-effective to debug, verify, maintain,
>>> reuse,
>>>> and extend.
>>>>
>>>> In a similar fashion, Naomi is a means of "taming" complex regular
>>>> expressions, as well as offering an easier alternative for those who
>> are
>>>> unfamiliar with them. Naomi makes pattern matching programs more
>>> readable,
>>>> modular, and therefore verifiable, maintainable, and extensible. Naomi
>>>> ultimately generates regular expressions, and it can do everything they
>>> can
>>>> do, but it provides a higher-level API that uses object-oriented
>>> constructs to
>>>> define complex, modular, parameterized patterns and subpatterns.
>>>>
>>>> Naomi's advantages over bare regular expressions become apparent only
>> for
>>>> larger scale pattern matching tasks. Whereas regular expressions are
>>> highly
>>>> compact and terse, this virtue becomes a vice for complex patterns.
>>> Coupled
>>>> with the extensive use of metacharacters and escape sequences, this
>>> makes even
>>>> moderately complex regular expressions effectively unreadable for all
>>> but the
>>>> most experienced and practiced regular expression programmers. Newer
>>> features
>>>> that go beyond the original regular expression formalism--such as
>> namable
>>>> groups, built-in names for common character classes, comments, and free
>>> white
>>>> space--make regular expressions less terse. But their use is not enough
>>> to
>>>> render complex regular expressions easily readable. These extensions
>> are
>>>> analogous to replacing binary machine language by assembly language
>>> coding. It
>>>> is only necessary to consider a complex problem--such as that of
>> parsing
>>> the
>>>> e-mail date-time specification of RFC 2822 in src/DateTime.java--to
>>> appreciate
>>>> the obscurity of regular expressions and to understand Naomi's
>>> advantages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Norman Shapiro
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> Javin
>> http://javarevisited.blogspot.com/
>> Twitter : https://twitter.com/javinpaul
>> blog : http://java67.blogspot.com
>> blog : http://savingsfunda.blogspot.com
>>
>
>


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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Phil Steitz
+1 and it seems Git is too popular to avoid.

Gary

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
> > suppose,
>
> OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
> Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
> code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
> the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
> repo.
>
> Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?
>
> Phil
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html
>
>
> >  like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
> > the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
> >
> > I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
> > what's under the hood.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
> >>>
> >>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
> >> wrapper
> >>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
> >> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
> >> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
> >> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
> >> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
> >> fit nicely in Commons to me.
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split
> into
> >> an
> >>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
> >> the
> >>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
> >>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation
> module.
> >>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
> >>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
> >> that
> >>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
> >>>
> >>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then
> a
> >>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
> >>>
> >>> 2c,
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >>>>>> Norman,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
> >>>>> Pointing
> >>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
> >>>> your
> >>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get
> folks
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
> >>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
> >>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
> >>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
> >>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
> >>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
> >>>>>
> >>>> +1.
> >>>>
> >>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description
> of
> >>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
> >>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
> >> regular
> >>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and
> you
> >>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and
> all
> >>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
> >>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but
> simpler
> >> (in
> >>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
> >>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
> >>>>
> >>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
> >>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
> >> CharSequencePattern("?")'
> >>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also
> the
> >>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
> >>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly
> clicking
> >> on
> >>>> javadoc :)
> >>>>
> >>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too
> complex,
> >>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
> >> supporting,
> >>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
> >>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
> >>>>
> >>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
> >>>>
> >>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
> >>>> complex?].
> >>>>
> >>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
> >> with:
> >>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
> >> own".
> >>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
> >> that
> >>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
> >>>>
> >>>> Hen
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

garydgregory
In reply to this post by Phil Steitz
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could we
> > simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons itself?
> I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
> clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
> manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
> there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
> the Sandbox, IMO.
>

Roger that, champion away Phil! :-)

Gary

>
> Phil
> >
> > Gayr
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Javin Paul <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> @ Siegfried Goeschl
> >>
> >> Having retired computer scientists turn to Open Source is great idea,
> >> nothing can beat experience and having them contributed to Apache or
> Github
> >> is simply awesome.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Siegfried Goeschl <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Norman & Jeff,
> >>>
> >>> I skimmed through the email conversation ….
> >>>
> >>> * Personally I really like the idea that retired computer scientists
> turn
> >>> to Open Source :-)
> >>>
> >>> * Looking at the GitHub project I indeed see a cultural gap which needs
> >> be
> >>> closed to do meaningful Open Source work
> >>>
> >>> * I try to ignore the fact that you are well-regarded computer
> scientist
> >>> and I’m an unknown software developer :-)
> >>>
> >>> Having said that
> >>>
> >>> * no matter if you are joining Apache Commons or just live on GitHub -
> >> you
> >>> need a good introduction to the project (think of unique selling
> point).
> >>> Sit down and write a cool Markdown document to get people enthusiastic
> -
> >>> only enthusiastic people will use your contributions and maybe
> >> participate
> >>> later on.
> >>>
> >>> * there is a GitHub pull request out there from Dave Brosius - if you
> are
> >>> unhappy about it please comment it otherwise merge it with your repo.
> >>> Ignoring a pull request might be considered impolite :-)
> >>>
> >>> * you need to clean up the project - Maven build (I assume mostly done
> by
> >>> Dave Brosius), separate test folder, javadoc, site documentation and
> code
> >>> style - and this will take some (all, a lot of ) time and could/will be
> >>> frustrating since the bar is quite high at Apache Commons (and many
> other
> >>> FOSS communities).
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Siegfried Goeschl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 24 Oct 2015, at 17:14, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> My colleague, Jeff Rothenberg, and I are retired computer scientists
> >> and
> >>> are
> >>>> no strangers to regular expression theory and practice. Both of us
> have
> >>> used
> >>>> regular expressions for decades and have taught many other programmers
> >>> how to
> >>>> use them. Stephen Kleene (
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cole_Kleene),
> >>>> the inventor of regular expressions and I
> >>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Shapiro) were both doctoral
> >>> students of
> >>>> Alonzo Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonzo_Church).
> >> Rothenberg
> >>> used
> >>>> SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 (more powerful than all but a few of the most
> >> recent
> >>>> versions of regular expressions) extensively in his graduate work in
> >>>> Artificial Intelligence in the late 1960 and early 1970s.
> >>>>
> >>>> In our experience, although skilled programmers can write regular
> >>> expressions
> >>>> that solve a wide range of problems, for all but the simplest tasks
> >>> regular
> >>>> expressions quickly become "write only". That is, once they have aged
> >>> for a
> >>>> while, no one other than their authors (and, in our experience, often
> >>> not even
> >>>> they) can understand them well enough to verify, modify, debug, or
> >>> maintain
> >>>> them without considerable effort. Analogous low-level programming
> >>> formalisms,
> >>>> such as machine code and assembly language, have been replaced by
> >>>> higher-level, more readable and modular languages to produce programs
> >>> that
> >>>> have proven easier and more cost-effective to debug, verify, maintain,
> >>> reuse,
> >>>> and extend.
> >>>>
> >>>> In a similar fashion, Naomi is a means of "taming" complex regular
> >>>> expressions, as well as offering an easier alternative for those who
> >> are
> >>>> unfamiliar with them. Naomi makes pattern matching programs more
> >>> readable,
> >>>> modular, and therefore verifiable, maintainable, and extensible. Naomi
> >>>> ultimately generates regular expressions, and it can do everything
> they
> >>> can
> >>>> do, but it provides a higher-level API that uses object-oriented
> >>> constructs to
> >>>> define complex, modular, parameterized patterns and subpatterns.
> >>>>
> >>>> Naomi's advantages over bare regular expressions become apparent only
> >> for
> >>>> larger scale pattern matching tasks. Whereas regular expressions are
> >>> highly
> >>>> compact and terse, this virtue becomes a vice for complex patterns.
> >>> Coupled
> >>>> with the extensive use of metacharacters and escape sequences, this
> >>> makes even
> >>>> moderately complex regular expressions effectively unreadable for all
> >>> but the
> >>>> most experienced and practiced regular expression programmers. Newer
> >>> features
> >>>> that go beyond the original regular expression formalism--such as
> >> namable
> >>>> groups, built-in names for common character classes, comments, and
> free
> >>> white
> >>>> space--make regular expressions less terse. But their use is not
> enough
> >>> to
> >>>> render complex regular expressions easily readable. These extensions
> >> are
> >>>> analogous to replacing binary machine language by assembly language
> >>> coding. It
> >>>> is only necessary to consider a complex problem--such as that of
> >> parsing
> >>> the
> >>>> e-mail date-time specification of RFC 2822 in src/DateTime.java--to
> >>> appreciate
> >>>> the obscurity of regular expressions and to understand Naomi's
> >>> advantages.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>    Norman Shapiro
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thanks
> >> Javin
> >> http://javarevisited.blogspot.com/
> >> Twitter : https://twitter.com/javinpaul
> >> blog : http://java67.blogspot.com
> >> blog : http://savingsfunda.blogspot.com
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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>


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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Bernd Eckenfels
In reply to this post by Phil Steitz
Am Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:58:28 -0700
schrieb Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>:

> On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could
> > we simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons
> > itself?
> I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
> clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
> manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
> there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
> the Sandbox, IMO.

I think the project is in a pretty bad shape. I would prefer to wait
till it is overhauled and mavenized (I did not understand the
merge into ghpages, if this can be renamed to master and fix the broken
links in the README, that would be a start. I still havent seen any
sample of the Naomi syntax/power...)

And from my POV that would be a precondition to see some commitment of
the original submitters. Why would we rush things?

Gruss
Bernd

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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

garydgregory
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Am Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:58:28 -0700
> schrieb Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > > Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could
> > > we simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons
> > > itself?
> > I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
> > clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
> > manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
> > there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
> > the Sandbox, IMO.
>
> I think the project is in a pretty bad shape. I would prefer to wait
> till it is overhauled and mavenized (I did not understand the
> merge into ghpages, if this can be renamed to master and fix the broken
> links in the README, that would be a start. I still havent seen any
> sample of the Naomi syntax/power...)
>
> And from my POV that would be a precondition to see some commitment of
> the original submitters. Why would we rush things?
>

It seems OK to put Naomi in the Sandbox and then let anyone hack on making
it Mavenized, Common-ized and so on. Then we can all see and play with it
better it would seem to me.

Gary


>
> Gruss
> Bernd
>
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Siegfried Goeschl-4
Hi folks,

I basically agree here with Bernd

* the project needs clean-up  
* I think the idea is worthwhile
* having something similar to “grok” as a stand-alone package together with a programmatic approach to build regexp could be the way to go
* there is no community around so I think GitHub is currently a better place to see the project mature

So I’m

-0

for adding the project in its current state to Commons Sandbox

Cheers,

Siegfried Goeschl


> On 26 Oct 2015, at 00:12, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Am Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:58:28 -0700
>> schrieb Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>> Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could
>>>> we simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons
>>>> itself?
>>> I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
>>> clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
>>> manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
>>> there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
>>> the Sandbox, IMO.
>>
>> I think the project is in a pretty bad shape. I would prefer to wait
>> till it is overhauled and mavenized (I did not understand the
>> merge into ghpages, if this can be renamed to master and fix the broken
>> links in the README, that would be a start. I still havent seen any
>> sample of the Naomi syntax/power...)
>>
>> And from my POV that would be a precondition to see some commitment of
>> the original submitters. Why would we rush things?
>>
>
> It seems OK to put Naomi in the Sandbox and then let anyone hack on making
> it Mavenized, Common-ized and so on. Then we can all see and play with it
> better it would seem to me.
>
> Gary
>
>
>>
>> Gruss
>> Bernd
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Phil Steitz
On 10/26/15 4:04 AM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I basically agree here with Bernd
>
> * the project needs clean-up  
> * I think the idea is worthwhile
> * having something similar to “grok” as a stand-alone package together with a programmatic approach to build regexp could be the way to go
> * there is no community around so I think GitHub is currently a better place to see the project mature

There does seem to be some interest here in helping with the
clean-up.  Getting the code granted in its current state before we
have a raft of Gitub contributors who have to grant little pieces of
things makes IP clearance a little easier.  I see no real downside
to letting the cleanup happen in the Sandbox and the upside is we
are more likely to build community here.

Regarding the point about the code needing work, I am reminded of an
observation once made by Stefano Mazzocchi:  There are four
possibilities when it comes to code being "open-sourced" - good
code, good ideas; good code, bad ideas; bad code, good ideas; and
bad code, bad ideas - the third one is the one that tends to work
best.  Honestly, the code looks pretty decent to me; but there is a
lot to do to make it approachable and complete.  And the ideas are
certainly interesting.  So why not get it cleanly granted, put it in
the Sandbox and see what develops?

Phil

>
> So I’m
>
> -0
>
> for adding the project in its current state to Commons Sandbox
>
> Cheers,
>
> Siegfried Goeschl
>
>
>> On 26 Oct 2015, at 00:12, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Bernd Eckenfels <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Am Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:58:28 -0700
>>> schrieb Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> On 10/25/15 3:53 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>> Let's see, would we run this through the Apache Incubator or could
>>>>> we simply run it through our Commons Sandbox and then up to Commons
>>>>> itself?
>>>> I think we can just start in the sandbox, following the Incubator IP
>>>> clearance process as we have done before.  I volunteered above to
>>>> manage the IP clearance process and VOTE to accept.  It seems like
>>>> there is some interest here in working on it, so that qualifies for
>>>> the Sandbox, IMO.
>>> I think the project is in a pretty bad shape. I would prefer to wait
>>> till it is overhauled and mavenized (I did not understand the
>>> merge into ghpages, if this can be renamed to master and fix the broken
>>> links in the README, that would be a start. I still havent seen any
>>> sample of the Naomi syntax/power...)
>>>
>>> And from my POV that would be a precondition to see some commitment of
>>> the original submitters. Why would we rush things?
>>>
>> It seems OK to put Naomi in the Sandbox and then let anyone hack on making
>> it Mavenized, Common-ized and so on. Then we can all see and play with it
>> better it would seem to me.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>> Gruss
>>> Bernd
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> E-Mail: [hidden email] | [hidden email]
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Phil Steitz
In reply to this post by dbrosIus
I am not seeing any -1s on this, so I would like to proceed with a
VOTE to accept the code and start the IP clearance process.  For
that I need a definitive snapshot of somewhere that I can point to
for the VOTE and clearance docs.  My git-foo is pretty limited.  Can
someone suggest a stable URL that we can use to identify the code
that we will be accepting, should the VOTE pass?

Thanks!

Phil

On 10/25/15 12:25 PM, dbrosIus wrote:

> +1 and git please
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
> Date: 10/25/2015  3:15 PM  (GMT-05:00)
> To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,
>
> On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
>> suppose,
> OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
> Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
> code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
> the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
> repo.
>
> Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?
>
> Phil
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html
>
>
>>   like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
>> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
>>
>> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
>> what's under the hood.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
>>>>
>>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
>>> wrapper
>>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
>>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
>>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
>>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
>>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
>>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split into
>>> an
>>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
>>> the
>>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
>>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation module.
>>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
>>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
>>> that
>>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
>>>>
>>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then a
>>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> 2c,
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>>> Norman,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
>>>>>> Pointing
>>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
>>>>> your
>>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get folks
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
>>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
>>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
>>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
>>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
>>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description of
>>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
>>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
>>> regular
>>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and you
>>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and all
>>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
>>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but simpler
>>> (in
>>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
>>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
>>>>>
>>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
>>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
>>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
>>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also the
>>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
>>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly clicking
>>> on
>>>>> javadoc :)
>>>>>
>>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too complex,
>>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
>>> supporting,
>>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
>>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
>>>>>
>>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
>>>>>
>>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
>>>>> complex?].
>>>>>
>>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
>>> with:
>>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
>>> own".
>>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
>>> that
>>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
>>>>>
>>>>> Hen
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
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>
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Dave Brosius-2
git clone [hidden email]:NormanShapiro/Naomi.git
git checkout gh-pages


if you like, I already have a fork on github of it, I can merge gh-pages
into master, and delete the gh-pages branch, and then the repo will be
obviously just a one branch project.





On 10/28/2015 08:19 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:

> I am not seeing any -1s on this, so I would like to proceed with a
> VOTE to accept the code and start the IP clearance process.  For
> that I need a definitive snapshot of somewhere that I can point to
> for the VOTE and clearance docs.  My git-foo is pretty limited.  Can
> someone suggest a stable URL that we can use to identify the code
> that we will be accepting, should the VOTE pass?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Phil
>
> On 10/25/15 12:25 PM, dbrosIus wrote:
>> +1 and git please
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>> Date: 10/25/2015  3:15 PM  (GMT-05:00)
>> To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,
>>
>> On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
>>> suppose,
>> OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
>> Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
>> code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
>> the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
>> repo.
>>
>> Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html
>>
>>
>>>    like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
>>> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
>>>
>>> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
>>> what's under the hood.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
>>>> wrapper
>>>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
>>>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
>>>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
>>>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
>>>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
>>>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split into
>>>> an
>>>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
>>>> the
>>>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
>>>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation module.
>>>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
>>>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
>>>> that
>>>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then a
>>>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2c,
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>>>> Norman,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
>>>>>>> Pointing
>>>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get folks
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
>>>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
>>>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
>>>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
>>>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
>>>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description of
>>>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
>>>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
>>>> regular
>>>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and you
>>>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and all
>>>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
>>>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but simpler
>>>> (in
>>>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
>>>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
>>>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
>>>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
>>>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also the
>>>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
>>>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly clicking
>>>> on
>>>>>> javadoc :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too complex,
>>>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
>>>> supporting,
>>>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
>>>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
>>>>>> complex?].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
>>>> with:
>>>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
>>>> own".
>>>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
>>>> that
>>>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hen
>>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>


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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Phil Steitz
Thanks, Dave.

Instructions below look good enough to me for the VOTE.  Will kick that off later today.

Phil

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:56 AM, Dave Brosius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> git clone [hidden email]:NormanShapiro/Naomi.git
> git checkout gh-pages
>
>
> if you like, I already have a fork on github of it, I can merge gh-pages into master, and delete the gh-pages branch, and then the repo will be obviously just a one branch project.
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 10/28/2015 08:19 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:
>> I am not seeing any -1s on this, so I would like to proceed with a
>> VOTE to accept the code and start the IP clearance process.  For
>> that I need a definitive snapshot of somewhere that I can point to
>> for the VOTE and clearance docs.  My git-foo is pretty limited.  Can
>> someone suggest a stable URL that we can use to identify the code
>> that we will be accepting, should the VOTE pass?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>> On 10/25/15 12:25 PM, dbrosIus wrote:
>>> +1 and git please
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>> Date: 10/25/2015  3:15 PM  (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,
>>>
>>>> On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator I
>>>> suppose,
>>> OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
>>> Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
>>> code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
>>> the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
>>> repo.
>>>
>>> Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html
>>>
>>>
>>>>   like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
>>>> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
>>>>
>>>> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to see
>>>> what's under the hood.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my 2c.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
>>>>> wrapper
>>>>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
>>>>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
>>>>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
>>>>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
>>>>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
>>>>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split into
>>>>> an
>>>>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages, where
>>>>> the
>>>>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the name
>>>>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation module.
>>>>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid footing
>>>>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging implementations
>>>>> that
>>>>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language, then a
>>>>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2c,
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Norman,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular expressions.
>>>>>>>> Pointing
>>>>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation on
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get folks
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks interesting
>>>>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should take a
>>>>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
>>>>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
>>>>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
>>>>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the code.
>>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate description of
>>>>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API". It
>>>>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
>>>>> regular
>>>>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic and you
>>>>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j and all
>>>>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own mini
>>>>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but simpler
>>>>> (in
>>>>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
>>>>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain trained on
>>>>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
>>>>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
>>>>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's also the
>>>>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path that
>>>>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly clicking
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> javadoc :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too complex,
>>>>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
>>>>> supporting,
>>>>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
>>>>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
>>>>>>> complex?].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd go
>>>>> with:
>>>>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of its
>>>>> own".
>>>>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects with
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hen
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,

Jean-Louis MONTEIRO-2
Overall agree with the feedback.
I may have missed some emails in the thread, but did we get another email
from Norman to provide us with a bit more information?

Again I might have missed it. Apologies if so.

Jean-Louis

Le jeu 29 oct. 2015 06:34, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Thanks, Dave.
>
> Instructions below look good enough to me for the VOTE.  Will kick that
> off later today.
>
> Phil
>
> > On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:56 AM, Dave Brosius <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > git clone [hidden email]:NormanShapiro/Naomi.git
> > git checkout gh-pages
> >
> >
> > if you like, I already have a fork on github of it, I can merge gh-pages
> into master, and delete the gh-pages branch, and then the repo will be
> obviously just a one branch project.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 10/28/2015 08:19 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:
> >> I am not seeing any -1s on this, so I would like to proceed with a
> >> VOTE to accept the code and start the IP clearance process.  For
> >> that I need a definitive snapshot of somewhere that I can point to
> >> for the VOTE and clearance docs.  My git-foo is pretty limited.  Can
> >> someone suggest a stable URL that we can use to identify the code
> >> that we will be accepting, should the VOTE pass?
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >>> On 10/25/15 12:25 PM, dbrosIus wrote:
> >>> +1 and git please
> >>>
> >>> -------- Original message --------
> >>> From: Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
> >>> Date: 10/25/2015  3:15 PM  (GMT-05:00)
> >>> To: Commons Developers List <[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: Re: Proposed Contribution to Apache Commons,
> >>>
> >>>> On 10/2/15 12:08 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >>>> Well, a champion can volunteer to shepherd this through our incubator
> I
> >>>> suppose,
> >>> OK, I will volunteer to do this.  I propose that we start this as a
> >>> Commons Sandbox project.  To do that, we need a VOTE to accept the
> >>> code, a software grant and the IP clearance form [1] submitted to
> >>> the Incubator PMC.  We can use either git or svn for the new sandbox
> >>> repo.
> >>>
> >>> Any objections?  Any preference for git or svn?
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/ip-clearance-template.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>   like CommonsRDF, which seems pretty inactive ATM. There is also
> >>>> the issue of "donate and forget" vs. staying plugged in the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> I just do not have the extra FOSS cycles to dig into the code ATM to
> see
> >>>> what's under the hood.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gary
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Phil Steitz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/2/15 11:46 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >>>>>> I do not have time to dig into this one ATM but I'd like to give my
> 2c.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does this project introduce a new RE-like language or is it an API
> >>>>> wrapper
> >>>>>> for REs? It sounds like it is both.
> >>>>> It looks to me like what it says it is, which is an alternative to
> >>>>> REs, which IMO is a nice idea.  Less "pattern matching language" and
> >>>>> more objects expressing matching intent.  End result is less
> >>>>> developer thought required to accomplish a common task.  Seems to
> >>>>> fit nicely in Commons to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil
> >>>>>> A project like this I could see in Commons if the project was split
> into
> >>>>> an
> >>>>>> API module and modules for different pattern matching languages,
> where
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> standard Java RE would be the reference example. Naomi (I love the
> name
> >>>>>> BTW, someones wife or daughter?) would be another implementation
> module.
> >>>>>> With both under its belt, the project would be on fairly solid
> footing
> >>>>>> (granted I do not know Naomi). You could even imaging
> implementations
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> would accept a JXPath or a SQL WHERE clause.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If the project is only meant to introduce a new RE-like language,
> then a
> >>>>>> TLP would be probably more appropriate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2c,
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Phil Steitz <
> [hidden email]>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 9/29/15 3:55 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Norman,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hello and welcome to Apache Commons.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me why Naomi is better than regular
> expressions.
> >>>>>>>> Pointing
> >>>>>>>>> to Javadocs is not the best way to get traction.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Your project would be better served by having some documentation
> on
> >>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>> front page with an example driven tutorial.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Is Naomi faster than REs?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What can I do in Naomi that REs can't do? And vice-versa.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Examples of this on your front page would help you at least get
> folks
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> consider learning a brand new way of doing things...
> >>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>> The code in SimpleExamples starts to get to this.  Looks
> interesting
> >>>>>>>> and powerful.  Either here or on the github readme you should
> take a
> >>>>>>>> stab at explaining a little more how hard problems using regex get
> >>>>>>>> easier with naomi, illustrated with some simple examples.  Then
> >>>>>>>> maybe with help from community members here, you can develop some
> >>>>>>>> overview / getting started docs that help people get into the
> code.
> >>>>>>> +1.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reading SimpleExamples, my summary would be a boilerplate
> description of
> >>>>>>> "It replaces the arcane regular expression language with an API".
> It
> >>>>>>> reminds me of command line argument parsers. Perl had/has a great
> >>>>> regular
> >>>>>>> expression like command line argument parser, but it was cryptic
> and you
> >>>>>>> either loved it or hated it. Then along came Commons CLI, args4j
> and all
> >>>>>>> the others, providing a more OO/procedural API instead of its own
> mini
> >>>>>>> language. Not as 'powerful' (in that you had to type more), but
> simpler
> >>>>> (in
> >>>>>>> that you didn't have to learn a new lingo and didn't have to juggle
> >>>>>>> multiple languages inside one context (a source file)).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I definitely need that user manual. It's hard, with a brain
> trained on
> >>>>>>> regular expressions, to read 'Pattern greek3=new
> >>>>> CharSequencePattern("?")'
> >>>>>>> and realize (I think) that it means a literal ? character. It's
> also the
> >>>>>>> primary way it'll be successful. You need that educational path
> that
> >>>>>>> explains what a ExplicitCharClass is for, rather than randomly
> clicking
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>> javadoc :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There'll also be much debate to be had I suspect. Is "a-e" too
> complex,
> >>>>>>> compared to "abcde" or "a","e". Which parts of regex are worth
> >>>>> supporting,
> >>>>>>> vs not. Can I mix bits of regexp with bits of Naomi?   new
> >>>>>>> ExplicitCharClass("a-eg-p").
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Random.... I'd like the idea of varargs for automatic and'ing. ie:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> new ExplicitCharClass("a-p", "!f")   [and is a not char class too
> >>>>>>> complex?].
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Continuing on my summary, as I peruse the code a little more, I'd
> go
> >>>>> with:
> >>>>>>> "Build a regular expression via an API, not an arcane language of
> its
> >>>>> own".
> >>>>>>> I'd love to see that grow to:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Express regular expressions as objects, or mix and match objects
> with
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> arcane mini language we all love or loathe".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hen
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
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> >
>
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12