Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

jochen-2
Hi, Craig,

I'm personally not sure that commons would be the best fit for
Sanselan. Despite the name, I'd consider the commons of xmlgraphics
(despite the name, this is not only about XML) a better place.
Nevertheless, I'd vote in favour of Sanselan, if it comes to that.


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Craig L Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1. It appears that dev@commons is the general mailing list for all commons
> projects. Would a small project like sanselan get lost in the traffic?

That's a problem that every part of Commons has. And another reason,
why you could possibly prefer the above place: No doubt, commons-dev
is relatively high volume. I am not sure, whether the shared mailing
list is the best solution, but I wouldn't like to have that discussion
in this context. As already said, it applies to every part and isn't
specific to Sanselan.



> 2. Most commons components have a "functional" name instead of a "fun" name.
> Would Sanselan need to be renamed, e.g. Commons Image, or would it be ok to
> have the sub-project called Sanselan, or Commons Sanselan?

IMO, no. I am unaware of an existing example without the commons
prefix, but what gives.


> 3. Would any changes be required from the existing packaging of Sanselan?
> For example, packages are named org.apache.sanselan. Would these need to be
> renamed to org.apache.commons.sanselan (or less fun name as above)?

Definitely no. I am not even sure, whether there is *any* existing
part of commons with the org.apache.commons prefix. OTOH, I am quite
sure that there are lots of examples without.


Jochen



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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Phil Steitz
Craig L Russell wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The Sanselan podling [1] has been incubating since 2007 and has
> achieved most of the goals in incubation:
>
> Code has been released [2] according to the incubator release guidelines
> Status is up to date [3]
> Community mailing lists are responded to promptly [5]
> JIRA issue tracking is in use [4]
> Web site with sample code and download is available
>
> The last item before graduation is activity and diversity, which are
> lacking. There were a few developers during the project but now we
> have only one active developer. And it's not clear that we will be
> able any time soon to attract more developers to fulfill the
> requirements.
>
> While discussing Sanselan in the incubator, it appears that there are
> three end points for the podling:
>
> 1. Fail incubation and reject Sanselan
> 2. Continue (indefinitely?) to incubate Sanselan
> 3. Graduate Sanselan as a sub-project of another TLP
>
> It appears to many of us that option 3 is the best way forward.
>
> It also appears that Commons might be a good fit for the project.
Before getting into the administrative questions below, the first
question to ask is can we grow a community around this component in
commons.  The lack of activity is a concern.  Is anyone interested in
coding on this?

Phil

>
> I have some questions to kick off a discussion:
>
> 1. It appears that dev@commons is the general mailing list for all
> commons projects. Would a small project like sanselan get lost in the
> traffic?
>
> 2. Most commons components have a "functional" name instead of a "fun"
> name. Would Sanselan need to be renamed, e.g. Commons Image, or would
> it be ok to have the sub-project called Sanselan, or Commons Sanselan?
>
> 3. Would any changes be required from the existing packaging of
> Sanselan? For example, packages are named org.apache.sanselan. Would
> these need to be renamed to org.apache.commons.sanselan (or less fun
> name as above)?
>
> If any additional oversight is needed to accept Sanselan, I'd be happy
> to contribute as PMC member.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig
>
> References:
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/sanselan.html
> [2] http://incubator.apache.org/sanselan/site/index.html
> [3] http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/sanselan/board/
> [4] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANSELAN
> [5] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sanselan-dev/
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>


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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

papajdo
Hi Phil,

On Apr 18, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:

>> The last item before graduation is activity and diversity, which  
>> are lacking. There were a few developers during the project but now  
>> we have only one active developer. And it's not clear that we will  
>> be able any time soon to attract more developers to fulfill the  
>> requirements.
>>
>> While discussing Sanselan in the incubator, it appears that there  
>> are three end points for the podling:
>>
>> 1. Fail incubation and reject Sanselan
>> 2. Continue (indefinitely?) to incubate Sanselan
>> 3. Graduate Sanselan as a sub-project of another TLP
>>
>> It appears to many of us that option 3 is the best way forward.
>>
>> It also appears that Commons might be a good fit for the project.
>>
> Before getting into the administrative questions below, the first  
> question to ask is can we grow a community around this component in  
> commons.
There is a small community. There are 31 subscribers to the dev list  
(5 or so are administrative/mentor subscriptions).

There is a small but steady stream of email to the alias.

There have been two committers, one of whom is currently active.

> The lack of activity is a concern.  Is anyone interested in coding  
> on this?

The primary author is still committed to the project. There have been  
code contributions but it appears to me that the product mostly works  
as advertised. If it doesn't work, users write in, sometimes  
contributing a patch.

So bottom line, there is a small community but not likely to grow into  
a full TLP-sized project.

Craig
>
> Phil
>

Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Phil Steitz
Craig L Russell wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> On Apr 18, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:
>
>>> The last item before graduation is activity and diversity, which are
>>> lacking. There were a few developers during the project but now we
>>> have only one active developer. And it's not clear that we will be
>>> able any time soon to attract more developers to fulfill the
>>> requirements.
>>>
>>> While discussing Sanselan in the incubator, it appears that there
>>> are three end points for the podling:
>>>
>>> 1. Fail incubation and reject Sanselan
>>> 2. Continue (indefinitely?) to incubate Sanselan
>>> 3. Graduate Sanselan as a sub-project of another TLP
>>>
>>> It appears to many of us that option 3 is the best way forward.
>>>
>>> It also appears that Commons might be a good fit for the project.
>>>
>> Before getting into the administrative questions below, the first
>> question to ask is can we grow a community around this component in
>> commons.
>
> There is a small community. There are 31 subscribers to the dev list
> (5 or so are administrative/mentor subscriptions).
>
> There is a small but steady stream of email to the alias.
>
> There have been two committers, one of whom is currently active.
>
>> The lack of activity is a concern.  Is anyone interested in coding on
>> this?
>
> The primary author is still committed to the project. There have been
> code contributions but it appears to me that the product mostly works
> as advertised. If it doesn't work, users write in, sometimes
> contributing a patch.
>
> So bottom line, there is a small community but not likely to grow into
> a full TLP-sized project.
We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate a component from
the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3 committers willing to
work on it (which means more than just "oversight" - more like active
involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule, but something we like
to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant" components that should
be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen on promoting
sandbox components or taking on codebases that we can't generate
committer interest in.  So lets see what level of interest we can
generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF committers at commons
and we don't have a tremendously high bar for contributors who stick
around long enough and play nice, so if we can get some volunteers to
express interest, we can move forward.

Phil

>
> Craig
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>


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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Carsten Ziegeler
Phil Steitz wrote

> We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate a component from
> the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3 committers willing to
> work on it (which means more than just "oversight" - more like active
> involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule, but something we like
> to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant" components that should
> be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen on promoting
> sandbox components or taking on codebases that we can't generate
> committer interest in.  So lets see what level of interest we can
> generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF committers at commons
> and we don't have a tremendously high bar for contributors who stick
> around long enough and play nice, so if we can get some volunteers to
> express interest, we can move forward.
>
I think at least all or nearly most of the current Sanselan committers, e.g.
Charles, Philipp and myself will be committed to Sanselan.

Carsten
--
Carsten Ziegeler
[hidden email]

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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Phil Steitz
Carsten Ziegeler wrote:

> Phil Steitz wrote
>  
>> We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate a component from
>> the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3 committers willing to
>> work on it (which means more than just "oversight" - more like active
>> involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule, but something we like
>> to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant" components that should
>> be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen on promoting
>> sandbox components or taking on codebases that we can't generate
>> committer interest in.  So lets see what level of interest we can
>> generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF committers at commons
>> and we don't have a tremendously high bar for contributors who stick
>> around long enough and play nice, so if we can get some volunteers to
>> express interest, we can move forward.
>>
>>    
> I think at least all or nearly most of the current Sanselan committers, e.g.
> Charles, Philipp and myself will be committed to Sanselan.
>
>  
Great.  That satisfies my only concern.  I think the administrative
items can be sorted out fairly easily, so I am +1 for welcoming this
codebase and community into commons.  I guess the  next step is to
decide whether to start in the sandbox or proper and then kick off a vote.

 From my perspective, proper is appropriate as the component has had a
release.  I will give others a chance to weigh in on this and then kick
off the acceptance vote.

Phil
> Carsten
>  


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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Carsten Ziegeler
Phil Steitz wrote:

> Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>> Phil Steitz wrote
>>  
>>> We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate a component from
>>> the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3 committers willing to
>>> work on it (which means more than just "oversight" - more like active
>>> involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule, but something we like
>>> to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant" components that should
>>> be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen on promoting
>>> sandbox components or taking on codebases that we can't generate
>>> committer interest in.  So lets see what level of interest we can
>>> generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF committers at commons
>>> and we don't have a tremendously high bar for contributors who stick
>>> around long enough and play nice, so if we can get some volunteers to
>>> express interest, we can move forward.
>>>
>>>    
>> I think at least all or nearly most of the current Sanselan
>> committers, e.g.
>> Charles, Philipp and myself will be committed to Sanselan.
>>
>>  
> Great.  That satisfies my only concern.  I think the administrative
> items can be sorted out fairly easily, so I am +1 for welcoming this
> codebase and community into commons.  I guess the  next step is to
> decide whether to start in the sandbox or proper and then kick off a vote.
>
> From my perspective, proper is appropriate as the component has had a
> release.  I will give others a chance to weigh in on this and then kick
> off the acceptance vote.
>
Cool! Thanks Phil!

Carsten
--
Carsten Ziegeler
[hidden email]

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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Matt Benson
In reply to this post by jochen-2



--- On Wed, 4/22/09, Carsten Ziegeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Carsten Ziegeler <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library
> To: "Commons Developers List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 4:42 AM
> Phil Steitz wrote
> > We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate
> a component from
> > the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3
> committers willing to
> > work on it (which means more than just "oversight" -
> more like active
> > involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule,
> but something we like
> > to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant"
> components that should
> > be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen
> on promoting
> > sandbox components or taking on codebases that we
> can't generate
> > committer interest in.  So lets see what level of
> interest we can
> > generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF
> committers at commons
> > and we don't have a tremendously high bar for
> contributors who stick
> > around long enough and play nice, so if we can get
> some volunteers to
> > express interest, we can move forward.
> >
> I think at least all or nearly most of the current Sanselan
> committers, e.g.
> Charles, Philipp and myself will be committed to Sanselan.

Hi Carsten,
  I understood Phil's comments to mean that only Charles had been making much in the way of actual code changes to Sanselan from now for X amount of time into the past.  Do the other committers have actual knowledge of the codebase, or, failing that, grim determination to see that Sanselan is properly supported?  ;)  I will try to make some time to peruse Sanselan's structure myself and would encourage other members of the Commons community to do the same, as we then might be in a better position to gauge how easily any Java developer could dive in and lend a hand.

-Matt

>
> Carsten
> --
> Carsten Ziegeler
> [hidden email]
>
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>




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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Niall Pemberton
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Matt Benson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Carsten Ziegeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: Carsten Ziegeler <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library
>> To: "Commons Developers List" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 4:42 AM
>> Phil Steitz wrote
>> > We have a rule of thumb here that in order to graduate
>> a component from
>> > the sandbox to commons proper, we need to have 3
>> committers willing to
>> > work on it (which means more than just "oversight" -
>> more like active
>> > involvement).  This is not a hard and fast rule,
>> but something we like
>> > to adhere to.  We already have too many "dormant"
>> components that should
>> > be moving out to the attic one day, so we aren't keen
>> on promoting
>> > sandbox components or taking on codebases that we
>> can't generate
>> > committer interest in.  So lets see what level of
>> interest we can
>> > generate here for Sanselan.  We welcome all ASF
>> committers at commons
>> > and we don't have a tremendously high bar for
>> contributors who stick
>> > around long enough and play nice, so if we can get
>> some volunteers to
>> > express interest, we can move forward.
>> >
>> I think at least all or nearly most of the current Sanselan
>> committers, e.g.
>> Charles, Philipp and myself will be committed to Sanselan.
>
> Hi Carsten,
>  I understood Phil's comments to mean that only Charles had been making much in the way of actual code changes to Sanselan from now for X amount of time into the past.  Do the other committers have actual knowledge of the codebase, or, failing that, grim determination to see that Sanselan is properly supported?  ;)  I will try to make some time to peruse Sanselan's structure myself and would encourage other members of the Commons community to do the same, as we then might be in a better position to gauge how easily any Java developer could dive in and lend a hand.

Yes I think saying 3 committers is a bit mis-leading - since Sanselan
entered the incubator Carsten has made the 2nd most commits but that
is only 16 commits and he hasn't committed for over a year. Also the
last commit on the project was over 3 months ago:

http://markmail.org/search/list:org.apache.incubator.sanselan-commits

So reality is this is currently a one-committer show and looks to be
heading to dormancy.

Niall

> -Matt
>
>>
>> Carsten

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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Carsten Ziegeler
Niall Pemberton wrote:

>
> Yes I think saying 3 committers is a bit mis-leading - since Sanselan
> entered the incubator Carsten has made the 2nd most commits but that
> is only 16 commits and he hasn't committed for over a year. Also the
> last commit on the project was over 3 months ago:
>
> http://markmail.org/search/list:org.apache.incubator.sanselan-commits
>
> So reality is this is currently a one-committer show and looks to be
> heading to dormancy.
>
Yes and no :) As I said, we three are committed to the project and we
now the codebase; obviously Charles knows it best. So, whenever
something needs to be done, I would say that one of us will be able to
do it.

Sanselan has the "problem" of being too good for what it does, so there
is rarely a need for doing something. That's one of the main reasons why
there haven't been any commits. Look at commons-lang or one of the other
libs, I think they are in a similar state - if you neglect the move to
Java5, what really needs to be done there?
The other problem is that Charles is really quick in responding and
doing stuff :) So before the others get a chance to do something, it's
already done by Charles usually. We already discussd this and Charles
slowed down :)

Carsten

--
Carsten Ziegeler
[hidden email]

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Re: [DISCUSS] Sanselan as a Commons library

Niall Pemberton
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>
>> Yes I think saying 3 committers is a bit mis-leading - since Sanselan
>> entered the incubator Carsten has made the 2nd most commits but that
>> is only 16 commits and he hasn't committed for over a year. Also the
>> last commit on the project was over 3 months ago:
>>
>> http://markmail.org/search/list:org.apache.incubator.sanselan-commits
>>
>> So reality is this is currently a one-committer show and looks to be
>> heading to dormancy.
>>
> Yes and no :) As I said, we three are committed to the project and we
> now the codebase; obviously Charles knows it best. So, whenever
> something needs to be done, I would say that one of us will be able to
> do it.
>
> Sanselan has the "problem" of being too good for what it does, so there
> is rarely a need for doing something. That's one of the main reasons why
> there haven't been any commits. Look at commons-lang or one of the other
> libs, I think they are in a similar state - if you neglect the move to
> Java5, what really needs to be done there?
> The other problem is that Charles is really quick in responding and
> doing stuff :) So before the others get a chance to do something, it's
> already done by Charles usually. We already discussd this and Charles
> slowed down :)

Thanks for this, I'm happier now.

Niall

> Carsten
>
> --
> Carsten Ziegeler
> [hidden email]

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