[all] NSWC and Apache license

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[all] NSWC and Apache license

Sébastien Brisard
Hello,
I'm currently working on MATH-738, and am considering porting part of
the FORTRAN "NSWC Library of Mathematics Subroutines" [1] (Naval
Surface Warfare Center).
The website states

    "This software is made available, without cost, to the general
scientific community. The 1993 edition is an update of the 1990
edition."

Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
(license-wise?). I would think it does...

Thanks for your advice!

Sébastien

[1] http://www.ualberta.ca/CNS/RESEARCH/Software/NumericalNSWC/site.html


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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

kevan

On Aug 8, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Sébastien Brisard wrote:

> Hello,
> I'm currently working on MATH-738, and am considering porting part of
> the FORTRAN "NSWC Library of Mathematics Subroutines" [1] (Naval
> Surface Warfare Center).
> The website states
>
>    "This software is made available, without cost, to the general
> scientific community. The 1993 edition is an update of the 1990
> edition."
>
> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
> (license-wise?). I would think it does…

That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.

--kevan


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RE: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Jason Pyeron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevan Miller [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 11:14
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Sébastien Brisard wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > I'm currently working on MATH-738, and am considering
> porting part of
> > the FORTRAN "NSWC Library of Mathematics Subroutines" [1] (Naval
> > Surface Warfare Center).
> > The website states
> >
> >    "This software is made available, without cost, to the general
> > scientific community. The 1993 edition is an update of the 1990
> > edition."
> >
> > Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
> > (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>
> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  
> claim to be in the general scientific community, the software
> has not been made available to me.
>

I can make some enquiries to see if it can be changed. Do you know which NSWC
released it, Dahlgren, Carderock and which code 90,50, etc?


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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Sébastien Brisard
In reply to this post by kevan
Hi Kevan,
thanks for your answer.

2012/8/8 Kevan Miller <[hidden email]>:

>
> On Aug 8, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Sébastien Brisard wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I'm currently working on MATH-738, and am considering porting part of
>> the FORTRAN "NSWC Library of Mathematics Subroutines" [1] (Naval
>> Surface Warfare Center).
>> The website states
>>
>>    "This software is made available, without cost, to the general
>> scientific community. The 1993 edition is an update of the 1990
>> edition."
>>
>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>
> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.
>
> --kevan
>
I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
belong to the scientific community...

Sébastien


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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Sébastien Brisard
In reply to this post by Jason Pyeron
Hi Jason,

>
> I can make some enquiries to see if it can be changed. Do you know which NSWC
> released it, Dahlgren, Carderock and which code 90,50, etc?
>
Thanks, that would help a lot !
It's Dahlgren [1], FORTRAN 77.

If the answer you get is a straightforward yes, that's fine. If it is
a "no", maybe we could wait before we ask that it be changed. Indeed,
I'm only playing around with this library at the moment, I need to
make sure the accuracy it offers meets my requirements.

Best regards,
Sébastien

[1] http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA476840


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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Christian Grobmeier
In reply to this post by Sébastien Brisard
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sébastien Brisard
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
>>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>>
>> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.
>>
> I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
> vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
> belong to the scientific community...

If somebody writes a webbased SPSS or a company like creates
statistics on the SO usage with Math? Surely this is commercial use
and not really science?

Anyway the AL2.0 does not have restrictions who can use it or not; my
guess is it is not directly compatible.

But you really should ask legal@ in this case. I have not seen this
license listed here:
http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html

But they might be able to help you anyway.

Cheers
Christian

>
> Sébastien
>
>
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Luc Maisonobe
Le 08/08/2012 17:58, Christian Grobmeier a écrit :

> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sébastien Brisard
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
>>>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>>>
>>> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.
>>>
>> I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
>> vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
>> belong to the scientific community...

I would strongly argue against too simplistic interpretation.
For this kind of question, you should ask to the dedicated list at
apache. Please see <http://www.apache.org/legal/> and
<http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-legal>.

I guess they will say "no, you cannot use this stuff".

>
> If somebody writes a webbased SPSS or a company like creates
> statistics on the SO usage with Math? Surely this is commercial use
> and not really science?
>
> Anyway the AL2.0 does not have restrictions who can use it or not; my
> guess is it is not directly compatible.

This is also my guess.

Luc

>
> But you really should ask legal@ in this case. I have not seen this
> license listed here:
> http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
>
> But they might be able to help you anyway.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
>
>>
>> Sébastien
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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>
>
>


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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

James Carman
Do we have any contact with the maintainers/creators of this stuff?
If so, we may be able to ask for them to grant it to the ASF?

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Luc Maisonobe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 08/08/2012 17:58, Christian Grobmeier a écrit :
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sébastien Brisard
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
>>>>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>>>>
>>>> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.
>>>>
>>> I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
>>> vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
>>> belong to the scientific community...
>
> I would strongly argue against too simplistic interpretation.
> For this kind of question, you should ask to the dedicated list at
> apache. Please see <http://www.apache.org/legal/> and
> <http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-legal>.
>
> I guess they will say "no, you cannot use this stuff".
>
>>
>> If somebody writes a webbased SPSS or a company like creates
>> statistics on the SO usage with Math? Surely this is commercial use
>> and not really science?
>>
>> Anyway the AL2.0 does not have restrictions who can use it or not; my
>> guess is it is not directly compatible.
>
> This is also my guess.
>
> Luc
>
>>
>> But you really should ask legal@ in this case. I have not seen this
>> license listed here:
>> http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
>>
>> But they might be able to help you anyway.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christian
>>
>>>
>>> Sébastien
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Sébastien Brisard
In reply to this post by Luc Maisonobe
Hi,

2012/8/8 Luc Maisonobe <[hidden email]>:

> Le 08/08/2012 17:58, Christian Grobmeier a écrit :
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sébastien Brisard
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
>>>>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
>>>>
>>>> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't  claim to be in the general scientific community, the software has not been made available to me.
>>>>
>>> I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
>>> vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
>>> belong to the scientific community...
>
> I would strongly argue against too simplistic interpretation.
>
Of course I'm not happy with this simplistic interpretation.
Otherwise, I would not have asked in the first place.
My point is that the statement on the web-page is very vague, and
scientific community does not mean a lot to me, although I suspect
that it excludes any commercial use. The thing is *that* is not
clearly stated, and you could develop a commercial scientific
software, and belong to the scientific community (in my opinion).
Again, this point is for the sake of argument, I *know* this is
far-fetched.

Another weird thing I've just realized. The code was developed by the
US navy if I understand correctly, but is now hosted on a canadian
page, so we need clarification. Maybe Jason will be able to talk to
someone.

>
> For this kind of question, you should ask to the dedicated list at
> apache. Please see <http://www.apache.org/legal/> and
> <http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-legal>.
>
> I guess they will say "no, you cannot use this stuff".
>

My initial message was posted to both dev@ and legal-discuss@. Let's
see what their answer is. I understand I should not be too optimistic.

Thanks for all these answers,
Sébastien


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RE: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Jason Pyeron
In reply to this post by James Carman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Carman
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 14:54
> To: Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license
>
> Do we have any contact with the maintainers/creators of this stuff?
> If so, we may be able to ask for them to grant it to the ASF?

Yes, I work there (different location). Investigating that presently.

>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Luc Maisonobe
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Le 08/08/2012 17:58, Christian Grobmeier a écrit :
> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sébastien Brisard
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
> >>>>> (license-wise?). I would think it does…
> >>>>
> >>>> That seems explicitly restrictive to me. e.g. If I don't
>  claim to be in the general scientific community, the
> software has not been made available to me.
> >>>>
> >>> I agree with you. However, "scientific community" does seem a bit
> >>> vague to me. Arguably, anyone using Commons-*MATH* could claim to
> >>> belong to the scientific community...
> >
> > I would strongly argue against too simplistic interpretation.
> > For this kind of question, you should ask to the dedicated list at
> > apache. Please see <http://www.apache.org/legal/> and
> >
> <http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-legal>.
> >
> > I guess they will say "no, you cannot use this stuff".
> >
> >>
> >> If somebody writes a webbased SPSS or a company like creates
> >> statistics on the SO usage with Math? Surely this is
> commercial use
> >> and not really science?
> >>
> >> Anyway the AL2.0 does not have restrictions who can use it
> or not; my
> >> guess is it is not directly compatible.
> >
> > This is also my guess.
> >
> > Luc
> >
> >>
> >> But you really should ask legal@ in this case. I have not
> seen this
> >> license listed here:
> >> http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
> >>
> >> But they might be able to help you anyway.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Christian
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Sébastien
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Dave Fisher
In reply to this post by Sébastien Brisard
INAL, but I am a recovering Fortran programmer.

I found the same repository under:

http://ftp.twaren.net/FreeBSD/ports/local-distfiles/bf/nswc/Intro

I think that these routines are public domain and there is no copyright on the manual.

Really cool.

Regards,
Dave

On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:36 PM, Sébastien Brisard wrote:

> Hello,
> I'm currently working on MATH-738, and am considering porting part of
> the FORTRAN "NSWC Library of Mathematics Subroutines" [1] (Naval
> Surface Warfare Center).
> The website states
>
>    "This software is made available, without cost, to the general
> scientific community. The 1993 edition is an update of the 1990
> edition."
>
> Does that mean that porting it into Commons-Math is possible
> (license-wise?). I would think it does...
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> Sébastien
>
> [1] http://www.ualberta.ca/CNS/RESEARCH/Software/NumericalNSWC/site.html
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Dave Fisher
In reply to this post by Sébastien Brisard
Hi Sam,

Thanks! Enjoy your weekend!

Regards,
Dave

On Aug 10, 2012, at 7:59 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:

> Something that might be helpful in this discussion:
>
> http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#can-works-placed-in-the-public-domain-be-included-in-apache-products
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Sébastien Brisard
Hi all,
thanks for these answers. I need to digest all this. Of course, the primary
origin (not going back to the original author) would be duly acknowledged.
In fact, I've started translating the FORTRAN source. It's so much work
that I'm considering writing the Java program from scratch, using the
supporting (published papers) only (and maybe copy/pasting the numerical
constants -- which are published anyway). Even so, it would probably do no
harm to acknowledge this great library (for those who like FORTRAN).

Sébastien
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Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Gilles Sadowski
Hello.

> thanks for these answers. I need to digest all this. Of course, the primary
> origin (not going back to the original author) would be duly acknowledged.
> In fact, I've started translating the FORTRAN source. It's so much work
> that I'm considering writing the Java program from scratch, [...]

Recent, not too successful, attempts at porting complex codes from FORTRAN
(e.g. linear algebra, optimization) support this option. :-}

> using the
> supporting (published papers) only (and maybe copy/pasting the numerical
> constants -- which are published anyway). Even so, it would probably do no
> harm to acknowledge this great library (for those who like FORTRAN).

Building a set of units test with expected values computed by that library
might already be a huge help in ensuring that the Java implementation is
bug-free. Hopefully, compiling and running the code will be easier than
trying to entangle a FORTRAN source...


Best regards,
Gilles

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RE: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Dennis E. Hamilton
In reply to this post by Sébastien Brisard
+1 and by all means acknowledge the library - it might inspire further useful ports.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Sébastien Brisard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 00:28
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Commons Developers List
Subject: Re: [all] NSWC and Apache license

Hi all,
thanks for these answers. I need to digest all this. Of course, the primary origin (not going back to the original author) would be duly acknowledged. In fact, I've started translating the FORTRAN source. It's so much work that I'm considering writing the Java program from scratch, using the supporting (published papers) only (and maybe copy/pasting the numerical constants -- which are published anyway). Even so, it would probably do no harm to acknowledge this great library (for those who like FORTRAN).

Sébastien




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