[all] Rethinking dev@

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[all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
Hi,

given the last weeks, I'd like us to rethink how we work together.
Right now, there is basically only a single place for discussions, and
decisions, which is dev@commons. Okay, we are a common ASF project (no
pun intended), and we need a place to meet, but aren't we
overempasizing things a bit?

Honestly, I don't care about how many, and what branches [math]
maintains, and how the source tree is organized. I'd clearly like the
[math] developers to organize those things for themselves. And, I'd
like them to decide on their own, what, and how many deliverables they
create. (Doesn't matter, how many people are "them".)

In other words: I wonder (once again), that we should be able to grant
components a bigger degree of autonomy. For example: Why shouldn't
[math], or [crypto], have an additional mailing list. Can you imagine,
how much noise this would have  removed from dev@ over the last weeks?

Okay, I can see that our old odel is working for [io], [fileupload],
or [compress]. But I am not convinced, that this shoe is fitting for
all.

And, don't bother telling me about "It didn't work for Jakarta",
because it does work: The Incubator has general@ as a meeting place,
and a place for decisions, but the components can still work on their
own. We really need a distinction between topics that are for anyone
and others, that are not. Just using "[all]", or something else in the
subject doesn't scale.

Jochen

--
The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"

http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg

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Aw: [all] Rethinking dev@

Andrey Loskutov
+1000.
I joined the commons list only because I wanted to listen to BCEL project.

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

http://google.com/+AndreyLoskutov


> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2016 um 11:35 Uhr
> Von: "Jochen Wiedmann" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Apache Commons Developers List" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: [all] Rethinking dev@
>
> Hi,
>
> given the last weeks, I'd like us to rethink how we work together.
> Right now, there is basically only a single place for discussions, and
> decisions, which is dev@commons. Okay, we are a common ASF project (no
> pun intended), and we need a place to meet, but aren't we
> overempasizing things a bit?
>
> Honestly, I don't care about how many, and what branches [math]
> maintains, and how the source tree is organized. I'd clearly like the
> [math] developers to organize those things for themselves. And, I'd
> like them to decide on their own, what, and how many deliverables they
> create. (Doesn't matter, how many people are "them".)
>
> In other words: I wonder (once again), that we should be able to grant
> components a bigger degree of autonomy. For example: Why shouldn't
> [math], or [crypto], have an additional mailing list. Can you imagine,
> how much noise this would have  removed from dev@ over the last weeks?
>
> Okay, I can see that our old odel is working for [io], [fileupload],
> or [compress]. But I am not convinced, that this shoe is fitting for
> all.
>
> And, don't bother telling me about "It didn't work for Jakarta",
> because it does work: The Incubator has general@ as a meeting place,
> and a place for decisions, but the components can still work on their
> own. We really need a distinction between topics that are for anyone
> and others, that are not. Just using "[all]", or something else in the
> subject doesn't scale.
>
> Jochen
>
> --
> The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
>
> http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
>
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Benson Margulies
The 'problem of Jakarta' was a problem of supervision. The board could
not trust that anyone was minding the entire store. Multiple mailing
lists could be seen as an indication that commons is large and diverse
enough to risk suffering from the same problem. Some would think that
this desire to give it its own mailing list is a strong indication
that it should be its own TLP. That being said, launching a mailing
list just for the purpose of hashing out the future of Math might be a
compromise.

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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Bertrand Delacretaz
In reply to this post by jochen-2
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> >

> ...Why shouldn't [math], or [crypto], have an additional mailing list...

The general rule of mailing lists is that they should be split by
audience, not by topic.

If the math audience for example is really distinct from the rest then
why not - but note that people can achieve the same thing by filtering
on the [math] subject line tag if used consistently.

Another issue is voting on releases which must be an act of the PMC as
a whole, so if you split I would recommend that release votes still
happen on this list.

-Bertrand

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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Stian Soiland-Reyes
In reply to this post by Benson Margulies
Agreed, I think multiple lists would be great for everyone else who is
not on the Commons PMC; in fact that was a major reason why Commons
RDF went to the Incubator first, to have its own mailing lists in the
constructive phase.

However it could be very fragmenting for the PMC as there's the danger
of developing the "Crypto PMC", "Math PMC" etc - effectively making an
Apache within Apache. We should not forget the Jakarta learning
either. Perhaps if all PMC members agree to stay on all of the
sub-lists, and all release votes are done on dev@commons, then it
could work well.





On 24 June 2016 at 11:00, Benson Margulies <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The 'problem of Jakarta' was a problem of supervision. The board could
> not trust that anyone was minding the entire store. Multiple mailing
> lists could be seen as an indication that commons is large and diverse
> enough to risk suffering from the same problem. Some would think that
> this desire to give it its own mailing list is a strong indication
> that it should be its own TLP. That being said, launching a mailing
> list just for the purpose of hashing out the future of Math might be a
> compromise.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--
Stian Soiland-Reyes
Apache Taverna (incubating), Apache Commons
http://orcid.org/0000-0001-9842-9718

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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Bertrand Delacretaz
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...there's the danger
> of developing the "Crypto PMC", "Math PMC" etc - effectively making an
> Apache within Apache....

RED LIGHT ALARMS ALL OVER MY BOARD MEMBER BRAIN NOW

Just sayin' ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Emmanuel Bourg-3
In reply to this post by jochen-2
I'm -1, because indeed "It didn't work for Jakarta". You can't really
compare Commons to the Incubator, because the ultimate goal of an
incubated project is to become a TLP with its own community, so a
dedicated mailing list makes sense. Splitting the Commons mailing list
will just split the community and harm the cross pollination between
projects.

I expect the surge of activity around commons-crypto to calm down after
the first releases, so a dedicated mailing list doesn't make sense as it
will ultimately have a low traffic.

The case of commons-math is different. If we agree to promote it to TLP
once the community has recovered, then creating a dedicated list now is
sensible. This would be equivalent to incubating the Math TLP within
Commons as I suggested.

Emmanuel Bourg


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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Bertrand Delacretaz
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Another issue is voting on releases which must be an act of the PMC as
> a whole, so if you split I would recommend that release votes still
> happen on this list.

There could be a rule, that release votes must happe on dev@, not
component@. This is, what the Incubator does.

Jochen

--
The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"

http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg

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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Emmanuel Bourg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm -1, because indeed "It didn't work for Jakarta". You can't really
> compare Commons to the Incubator, because the ultimate goal of an
> incubated project is to become a TLP with its own community, so a
> dedicated mailing list makes sense. Splitting the Commons mailing list
> will just split the community and harm the cross pollination between
> projects.

Commons has bred TLP's in the past, and should not hesitate to do so
in the future.

Jochen


--
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

sebb-2-2
On 24 June 2016 at 12:02, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Emmanuel Bourg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm -1, because indeed "It didn't work for Jakarta". You can't really
>> compare Commons to the Incubator, because the ultimate goal of an
>> incubated project is to become a TLP with its own community, so a
>> dedicated mailing list makes sense. Splitting the Commons mailing list
>> will just split the community and harm the cross pollination between
>> projects.
>
> Commons has bred TLP's in the past, and should not hesitate to do so
> in the future.

+1 to spawning TLPs as needed (e.g. HttpClient)

However -1 to establishing component@ lists.

> Jochen
>
>
> --
> The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
>
> http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Ralph Goers
In reply to this post by jochen-2

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 2:35 AM, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> given the last weeks, I'd like us to rethink how we work together.
> Right now, there is basically only a single place for discussions, and
> decisions, which is dev@commons. Okay, we are a common ASF project (no
> pun intended), and we need a place to meet, but aren't we
> overempasizing things a bit?
>
> Honestly, I don't care about how many, and what branches [math]
> maintains, and how the source tree is organized. I'd clearly like the
> [math] developers to organize those things for themselves. And, I'd
> like them to decide on their own, what, and how many deliverables they
> create. (Doesn't matter, how many people are "them".)
>
> In other words: I wonder (once again), that we should be able to grant
> components a bigger degree of autonomy. For example: Why shouldn't
> [math], or [crypto], have an additional mailing list. Can you imagine,
> how much noise this would have  removed from dev@ over the last weeks?
>
> Okay, I can see that our old odel is working for [io], [fileupload],
> or [compress]. But I am not convinced, that this shoe is fitting for
> all.
>
> And, don't bother telling me about "It didn't work for Jakarta",
> because it does work: The Incubator has general@ as a meeting place,
> and a place for decisions, but the components can still work on their
> own. We really need a distinction between topics that are for anyone
> and others, that are not. Just using "[all]", or something else in the
> subject doesn't scale.
>

Well, it sort of works for the incubator. They are constantly having discussions about how to do it better. And yes, it could work for us if all the subprojects have to follow the incubator rules, such as filling quarterly reports with the Commons PMC to be included in the board report, insuring that each sub-project has a strong enough community to keep moving forward (which implies shepherds/mentors to monitor those communities), etc.  Do you really want to go that far?

Ralph



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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

garydgregory
In reply to this post by sebb-2-2
On Jun 24, 2016 4:19 AM, "sebb" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 24 June 2016 at 12:02, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Emmanuel Bourg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> >
> >> I'm -1, because indeed "It didn't work for Jakarta". You can't really
> >> compare Commons to the Incubator, because the ultimate goal of an
> >> incubated project is to become a TLP with its own community, so a
> >> dedicated mailing list makes sense. Splitting the Commons mailing list
> >> will just split the community and harm the cross pollination between
> >> projects.
> >
> > Commons has bred TLP's in the past, and should not hesitate to do so
> > in the future.
>
> +1 to spawning TLPs as needed (e.g. HttpClient)
>
> However -1 to establishing component@ lists.
>
> > Jochen

I'm with Jochen.

Gary
> >
> >
> > --
> > The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
> >
> >
http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg

> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
>
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

garydgregory
On Jun 24, 2016 7:41 AM, "Gary Gregory" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2016 4:19 AM, "sebb" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 24 June 2016 at 12:02, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Emmanuel Bourg <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm -1, because indeed "It didn't work for Jakarta". You can't really
> > >> compare Commons to the Incubator, because the ultimate goal of an
> > >> incubated project is to become a TLP with its own community, so a
> > >> dedicated mailing list makes sense. Splitting the Commons mailing
list

> > >> will just split the community and harm the cross pollination between
> > >> projects.
> > >
> > > Commons has bred TLP's in the past, and should not hesitate to do so
> > > in the future.
> >
> > +1 to spawning TLPs as needed (e.g. HttpClient)
> >
> > However -1 to establishing component@ lists.
> >
> > > Jochen
>
> I'm with Jochen.

I mean I agree with:

> > +1 to spawning TLPs as needed (e.g. HttpClient)
> >
> > However -1 to establishing component@ lists.

Gary

> Gary
>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
> > >
> > >
http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg

> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > >
> >
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Ralph Goers
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, it sort of works for the incubator. They are constantly having discussions about how to do it better. And yes, it could work for us if all the subprojects have to follow the incubator rules, such as filling quarterly reports with the Commons PMC to be included in the board report, insuring that each sub-project has a strong enough community to keep moving forward (which implies shepherds/mentors to monitor those communities), etc.  Do you really want to go that far?

Not necessarily. My intention is to demonstrate, that some kind of
compromise *is possible*, and might even be beneficial for us all.


Jochen

--
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

Benedikt Ritter-4
Hello,

we should stick to having one mailing list. If a component becomes so
specialized that the PMC fails to follow what is going on (like what
happend with CM), it is time to move that component out of commons. Having
separat mailing lists will only make things worse, IMHO.

Benedikt

Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> schrieb am Fr., 24. Juni 2016
um 16:58 Uhr:

> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Well, it sort of works for the incubator. They are constantly having
> discussions about how to do it better. And yes, it could work for us if all
> the subprojects have to follow the incubator rules, such as filling
> quarterly reports with the Commons PMC to be included in the board report,
> insuring that each sub-project has a strong enough community to keep moving
> forward (which implies shepherds/mentors to monitor those communities),
> etc.  Do you really want to go that far?
>
> Not necessarily. My intention is to demonstrate, that some kind of
> compromise *is possible*, and might even be beneficial for us all.
>
>
> Jochen
>
> --
> The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
>
>
> http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

garydgregory
On Jun 24, 2016 12:13 PM, "Benedikt Ritter" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> we should stick to having one mailing list. If a component becomes so
> specialized that the PMC fails to follow what is going on (like what
> happend with CM), it is time to move that component out of commons. Having
> separat mailing lists will only make things worse, IMHO.

+1

Gary

>
> Benedikt
>
> Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> schrieb am Fr., 24. Juni 2016
> um 16:58 Uhr:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Well, it sort of works for the incubator. They are constantly having
> > discussions about how to do it better. And yes, it could work for us if
all
> > the subprojects have to follow the incubator rules, such as filling
> > quarterly reports with the Commons PMC to be included in the board
report,
> > insuring that each sub-project has a strong enough community to keep
moving

> > forward (which implies shepherds/mentors to monitor those communities),
> > etc.  Do you really want to go that far?
> >
> > Not necessarily. My intention is to demonstrate, that some kind of
> > compromise *is possible*, and might even be beneficial for us all.
> >
> >
> > Jochen
> >
> > --
> > The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
> >
> >
> >
http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Benedikt Ritter-4
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Benedikt Ritter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> we should stick to having one mailing list. If a component becomes so
> specialized that the PMC fails to follow what is going on (like what
> happend with CM), it is time to move that component out of commons. Having
> separat mailing lists will only make things worse, IMHO.

The events regarding [math] were happening on the common mailing list,
right before our eyes. Nevertheless. we didn't notice.

Jochen


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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

sebb-2-2
On 24 June 2016 at 21:03, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Benedikt Ritter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> we should stick to having one mailing list. If a component becomes so
>> specialized that the PMC fails to follow what is going on (like what
>> happend with CM), it is time to move that component out of commons. Having
>> separat mailing lists will only make things worse, IMHO.
>
> The events regarding [math] were happening on the common mailing list,
> right before our eyes. Nevertheless. we didn't notice.

This is not an argument for a separate list.
If MATH had had its own list, we would have been even less likely to notice.

> Jochen
>
>
> --
> The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
>
> http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
>
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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

jochen-2
On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:25 PM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is not an argument for a separate list.
> If MATH had had its own list, we would have been even less likely to notice.

No, it isn't. But it contradicts the impression, that there is no need
for change, because we have dev@.

Jochen


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Re: [all] Rethinking dev@

sebb-2-2
On 25 June 2016 at 14:48, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:25 PM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> This is not an argument for a separate list.
>> If MATH had had its own list, we would have been even less likely to notice.
>
> No, it isn't. But it contradicts the impression, that there is no need
> for change, because we have dev@.

Whatever list is used, there's always a chance that problems will be ovelooked.
Maybe even more so if the only people following the list are the ones
involved, as would have been the case for a Math TLP.

> Jochen
>
>
> --
> The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
>
> http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
>
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