[all] Splitting the mailing list

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Dennis Lundberg-2
Henri Yandell wrote:

> On 7/22/06, Brett Porter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons.
>
> That wasn't my feeling - we're not very busy at the moment but
> generally I thought commons-dev was one of the busier lists at the
> ASF.
>
> Comparing:
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jakarta-commons-dev/
>
> and
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-dev/
>
> Maven-dev hit real heights with 4000 emails a month at the end of 2005
> - it's now down to 600 or so. An active Commons back in 2003/2004 was
> hitting 2000, though it's interesting to note we're still heading
> towards the 2000s whenever we get active (and I don't think we've
> really got that active yet).

Don't forget to add the new lists into the equation:

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-commits/

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-issues/

>
> My thinking is that over the next 6 months we should be doubling the
> number of active committers - I need to do some svn logs but I suspect
> there are 5->10 currently and it used to be 10-20. It'd also be
> interesting to analyse what our numbers would drop to if we split
> lists.
>
> Hen
>
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Dennis Lundberg

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Dennis Lundberg-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Colebourne
Stephen Colebourne wrote:

> This proposal has merit, in that it allows the main dev list room to
> breathe for discussion, which should be its primary purpose. It also has
> a very clear benefit in mail archive - in fact its really pretty
> essential for that.
>
> Some of the negative respones have focussed around what the needs of
> committers are, but I'd argue that we should be focussing on the needs
> of the 'users' - ie those who want to follow commons discussions, maybe
> chip in occasionaly, but are not interested in contributing/commiting.
> An excess of what can feel like spam will put some of these people off.

Good point! We are not doing this to please the committers, but trying
to breathe new life into the community.

> The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
> for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
> that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.

Being a fairly new committer here, let me describe how my progress from
casual reader of the user list to committer has been:

1. Start using commons components

2. Ask questions on usage and help others where possible
= subscribe to users@

3. Listen in on discussions regarding the general progress and direction
of interesting components
= subscribe to dev@

4. Start reporting bugs and follow what new functionality will come in
the components that interest me
= subscribe to issues@

5. Look at the actual code changes made to the interesting components,
and start to submit code myself
= subscribe to commits@

My standpoint is that it will have a positive effect on non-committers
if we split the lists. I also think two new lists is a minimum. I would
consider adding notifications for gump or other CI systems, see this as
an example
   http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-notifications/

>
> So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
>
> Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
>> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>>
>> So I'd like to suggest:
>>
>> [hidden email]  - reply-to to commons-dev
>> [hidden email]     - reply-to to commons-dev
>>
>> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
>> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
>> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
>> fix a spelling mistake.
>>
>> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
>> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
>> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
>> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
>> missing.
>>
>> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
>> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
>> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
>> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
>> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
>> people.
>>
>> One question:
>>
>> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
>> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>>
>> Hen
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Henri Yandell
In reply to this post by Henri Yandell
On 7/22/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/22/06, Stephen Colebourne <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
> > for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
> > that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.
> >
> > So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
> >
> > Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
>
> I'm not tied to multiple lists - so one list is fine by me.

I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
discussions as they come through.

A far more predictable version of the [xxx] convention without the
risk that you'd miss the Re: svn commit emails.

The reason this occurred to me was that I pondered the 'mad'
suggestion of having dev@jakarta and thinking that it might not be as
mad as it sounds :)

Hen

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Simon Kitching
On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> discussions as they come through.

One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
these lists first.

When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?

I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.

Regards,

Simon



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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Henri Yandell
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> > discussions as they come through.
>
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.
>
> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
>
> I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
> where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
> far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.

Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only
see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd
expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up.

Hen

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Dennis Lundberg-2
In reply to this post by Simon Kitching
Simon Kitching wrote:

> On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
>> I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
>> reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
>> commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
>> easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
>> interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
>> defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
>> discussions as they come through.
>
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.

This depends on how the mail server is set up. At my day job the
auto-responder only kicks in if the mail is addressed directly to me. If
the To: header contains something other than my address, for example the
address of a mailing list, it just doesn't send an auto-reply.

<snip/>

--
Dennis Lundberg

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

sebb-2-2
In reply to this post by Henri Yandell
On 24/07/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> > > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> > > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> > > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> > > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> > > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> > > discussions as they come through.
> >
> > One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> > seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> > their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> > these lists first.
> >
> > When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
> >
> > I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
> > where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
> > far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.
>
> Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only

I'm surprised at how many companies (large ones too) let OOO e-mails
outside their company boundaries. These can provide valuable
information for social engineering purposes...

> see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd
> expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up.

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

Stephen Colebourne
In reply to this post by Simon Kitching
Simon Kitching wrote:
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.
>
> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?

Depends if we have 4 lists or not. I'd prefer two dev and auto, which
would be a little easier. Not that I ever unsubscribe

Stephen

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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list

jochen-2
In reply to this post by Simon Kitching
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?

Leave it to those, which are silly enough to use an autoreply for
mailing lists? After all, a little bit of education cannot hurt.

Jochen

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Whenever you find yourself on the side of the
majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
(Mark Twain)

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