[math] top-level package name

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[math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
Hello,

Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).

Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?

Luc

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Re: [math] top-level package name

James Carman
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>
> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?

I'd say yes.

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Re: [math] top-level package name

sebb-2-2
On 19/05/2009, James Carman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > Hello,
>  >
>  > Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions.

Are you sure that there are large incompatibilities?

I thought you were trying to preserve API compatibility?

> We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>  >
>  > Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>
>
> I'd say yes.
>

In that case, it should be OK to break compatibility in the Frequency
class by requiring that parameters be Comparable rather than Object -
see MATH-259 & MATH-261 - which will improve compile-time safety.

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Re: [math] top-level package name

Phil Steitz
In reply to this post by Luc Maisonobe
[hidden email] wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>  
What were the problems?  I have been on the fence on the package name
change as I - I guess incorrectly - have been assuming that the
compatability breaks are not extensive and not likely to bite many users.

Given that there *are* incompatibilities, I am +1 on the package renaming.

Phil
> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>
> Luc
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Re: [math] top-level package name

Gilles Sadowski
Hi.

> Given that there *are* incompatibilities, I am +1 on the package renaming.
>
>> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>>

I don't understand why version 2.0 should be assimilated to a new project.
Is there someone who is going to work on the v1.2 code base? If not, what is
the gain?
Anyone who has an application that runs under v1.2 can still use the
old JAR, which will be forever compatible.
As it has been said, upgrading to a new major release may involve
incompatible changes.

Gilles

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Re: [math] top-level package name

sebb-2-2
On 19/05/2009, Gilles Sadowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
>
>  > Given that there *are* incompatibilities, I am +1 on the package renaming.
>  >
>
> >> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>  >>
>
>
> I don't understand why version 2.0 should be assimilated to a new project.
>  Is there someone who is going to work on the v1.2 code base? If not, what is
>  the gain?
>  Anyone who has an application that runs under v1.2 can still use the
>  old JAR, which will be forever compatible.

Yes, that's fine for many applications.

Howver, the application could include other software that required a
later version of Math; the only sure way to avoid clashes is to use
different class names.

>  As it has been said, upgrading to a new major release may involve
>  incompatible changes.
>
>
>  Gilles
>
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Re: [math] top-level package name

Henri Yandell
In reply to this post by Luc Maisonobe
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>
> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?

Generate a clirr report when 2.0 is ready and decide then :)

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Re: [math] top-level package name

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by sebb-2-2
> > I don't understand why version 2.0 should be assimilated to a new project.
> >  Is there someone who is going to work on the v1.2 code base? If not, what is
> >  the gain?
> >  Anyone who has an application that runs under v1.2 can still use the
> >  old JAR, which will be forever compatible.
>
> Yes, that's fine for many applications.
>
> Howver, the application could include other software that required a
> later version of Math; the only sure way to avoid clashes is to use
> different class names.

If eternal backward compatibility is paramount, then for every major
version change you'd require a new name ("math3" for v3.0, and so on).
[Indeed, what is the difference between major a minor version numbers
changes?]
Then, that will create a mess of seemingly different projects, all but the
last one being dead!

Moreover, to refer to your example, how can a software depend from a *later*
version of Math (since it does not exist yet)?
To be clearer, suppose that, as of now,
 * A (v1.0) depends on
   - B (v1.0)
   - Math (v1.2)

 * B (v1.0) depends on
   - Math (v1.2)

Everything works fine, and will continue to work as long as A's code and its
dependencies artefacts are not touched.

Then, "later",
 * B (v3.0) depends on
   - Math (v2.0)

Things will possibly start to break *only* if A's maintainer wants to
upgrade to B (v3.0), but if he does that, he should be prepared to do
some work on his code. Why not, since he replaced a component with a new one
with a major version number bump?
Why should the Math project be responsible for this kind of "transitive"
compatibility problems? Do I miss something?

Best,
Gilles

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Re: [math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
In reply to this post by sebb-2-2
sebb a écrit :
> On 19/05/2009, James Carman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  > Hello,
>>  >
>>  > Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions.
>
> Are you sure that there are large incompatibilities?

Yes. There have been several packages reorganizations in analysis, ode,
linear and optimization by adding subpackages and moving classes. There
have been some renamed classes (mainly in ode). There have been very
large changes in linear and optimization (almost all classes have
changed I think) and new methods have been added to interfaces. Every
deprecated API from 1.x have been removed.

When possible, the old API have been simply deprecated so they can be
removed later, but it was not always possible (I don't remember each
case, sorry).

As suggested by Hen, I ran a clirr report with respect to 1.2, it
triggered 183 errors (including the deprecated methods that have been
removed).


>
> I thought you were trying to preserve API compatibility?

Yes, for minor versions. However, since there were some needed changes
in ode and linear, we decided to take the opportunity to concentrate all
changes in one move once it had been decided to start.

>
>> We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>>  >
>>  > Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>>
>>
>> I'd say yes.
>>
>
> In that case, it should be OK to break compatibility in the Frequency
> class by requiring that parameters be Comparable rather than Object -
> see MATH-259 & MATH-261 - which will improve compile-time safety.

As far as I am concerned, I'll say yes. In fact, I was even wondering
why stopping the changes here when we have the opportunity.

Luc

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Re: [math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
Gilles Sadowski a écrit :
> Hi.
>
>> Given that there *are* incompatibilities, I am +1 on the package renaming.
>>
>>> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>>>
>
> I don't understand why version 2.0 should be assimilated to a new project.

It's not a new project in this case, but it is an (well, in fact many)
incompatible change.

> Is there someone who is going to work on the v1.2 code base? If not, what is
> the gain?

If someone raises a bug on 1.2 and can't switch to 2.0 because of the
changes that may be too costly to handle, then we may well fix the bug
in 1.2 and release another 1.x. Of course, we hope everybody will switch
to 2.0 but we have to be pragmatic and be kind to users.

> Anyone who has an application that runs under v1.2 can still use the
> old JAR, which will be forever compatible.

For a direct dependency and a completely controlled program, yes. The
problem arises when multiple dependency level are involved. This occurs
more frequently when a low level library is used, which is the case of
[math]. If you use both directly [math] and use another library which
uses [math] there is a problem when you update your top-level
application but the intermediate library is not as quick as you and
still rely on the previous version. The is the so-called jar-hell problem.

Luc

> As it has been said, upgrading to a new major release may involve
> incompatible changes.
>
> Gilles
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Re: [math] top-level package name

James Carman
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Gilles Sadowski
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> To be clearer, suppose that, as of now,
>  * A (v1.0) depends on
>   - B (v1.0)
>   - Math (v1.2)
>
>  * B (v1.0) depends on
>   - Math (v1.2)
>
> Everything works fine, and will continue to work as long as A's code and its
> dependencies artefacts are not touched.
>
> Then, "later",
>  * B (v3.0) depends on
>   - Math (v2.0)
>
> Things will possibly start to break *only* if A's maintainer wants to
> upgrade to B (v3.0), but if he does that, he should be prepared to do
> some work on his code.

If we change the package names when we bump Math (v1.2) to Math
(v2.0), then A won't have to change any of their code that depends on
Math (v1.2) if they want to upgrade to B (v3.0)

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[VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
In reply to this post by Henri Yandell
Henri Yandell a écrit :
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>>
>> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>
> Generate a clirr report when 2.0 is ready and decide then :)

183 errors ...

Well this may seem very large, but there are a few categories that
contribute a lot to this large number. Some changes are mainly internal
like exception constructors. Some changes correspond to deprecated APIs
that were purged. Several related sets of classes were moved together in
sub-packages. There are also additions to interfaces for which we don't
expect users to provide their own implementations (the most typical case
is RealMatrix).

From the very beginning, we had decided it will be a major release and
didn't refrain to add incompatible changes, putting them all in one
release to make sure we have a very clean start version for 2.x. As far
as I am concerned, the old package name would be fine. However, it seems
the policy for such changes is now to change these names, and lots of
good arguments have been presented recently, so I thought we should
follow the general trend and good advices.

So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
[math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.

[] +1 change the top level package name
[]  0 I don't care
[] -1 keep the old name

Vote open for 72 hours (up to Friday May 19th 20h00 UTC)

Luc

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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
Luc Maisonobe a écrit :

> Henri Yandell a écrit :
>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:53 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Considering the ongoing discussion in another thread, the current changes that have been done on [math] for the last months belong to the major changes with large incompatibilities with previous versions. We have already decided that the version number will be 2.0 to acknowledge that. I know of at least one big international research project that uses commons-math 1.2 and will switch to 2.0 when it will be published. They have already faced compatibility problems recently (two days ago).
>>>
>>> Should we change the top level package name from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2 ?
>> Generate a clirr report when 2.0 is ready and decide then :)
>
> 183 errors ...
>
> Well this may seem very large, but there are a few categories that
> contribute a lot to this large number. Some changes are mainly internal
> like exception constructors. Some changes correspond to deprecated APIs
> that were purged. Several related sets of classes were moved together in
> sub-packages. There are also additions to interfaces for which we don't
> expect users to provide their own implementations (the most typical case
> is RealMatrix).
>
>>From the very beginning, we had decided it will be a major release and
> didn't refrain to add incompatible changes, putting them all in one
> release to make sure we have a very clean start version for 2.x. As far
> as I am concerned, the old package name would be fine. However, it seems
> the policy for such changes is now to change these names, and lots of
> good arguments have been presented recently, so I thought we should
> follow the general trend and good advices.
>
> So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
> [math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.
>
> [] +1 change the top level package name
> []  0 I don't care
> [] -1 keep the old name

Here is my own +1


>
> Vote open for 72 hours (up to Friday May 19th 20h00 UTC)
>
> Luc
>
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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Dimitri Pourbaix
In reply to this post by Luc Maisonobe
Hi,

> So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
> [math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.
>
> [] +1 change the top level package name
> []  0 I don't care
> [] -1 keep the old name

-1

Regards,
  Dim.
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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Ted Dunning
+0.  Possibly changing to +1 as I think about it more.

Dimitry,

Is there an argument that you could see would change your mind?  What
specifically causes your -1?  Convenience?  Elegance?

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Dimitri Pourbaix
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi,
>
>  So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
>> [math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.
>>
>> [] +1 change the top level package name
>> []  0 I don't care
>> [] -1 keep the old name
>>
>
> -1
>
> Regards,
>  Dim.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Institut d'Astronomie et d'Astrophysique *      Don't worry, be happy
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Sunnyvale, CA 94086
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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Gilles Sadowski
In reply to this post by Luc Maisonobe

> So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
> [math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.
>
> [] +1 change the top level package name
> []  0 I don't care
> [] -1 keep the old name
>

-1
But I don't know whether I'm allowed to vote... :-}

Best regards,
Gilles

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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Dimitri Pourbaix
In reply to this post by Ted Dunning
Ted,

> +0.  Possibly changing to +1 as I think about it more.
>
> Dimitry,
>
> Is there an argument that you could see would change your mind?  What
> specifically causes your -1?  Convenience?  Elegance?

Well, for me, the release number is not part of the name of a package
(of anything in general) eventhough I agree the combination of both is
what uniquely identifies the product.  Luc wants to add the "2" just to
warn the users about the lack of backward compatibility.  That would
simply add confusion.

What is the policy in the other Apache projects?

Regards,
  Dim.
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Institut d'Astronomie et d'Astrophysique *      Don't worry, be happy
CP 226, office 2.N4.211, building NO     *         and CARPE DIEM.
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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Luc Maisonobe
In reply to this post by Gilles Sadowski
Gilles Sadowski a écrit :

>> So let's vote on this proposal: change the top level package name on
>> [math] from org.apache.commons.math to org.apache.commons.math2.
>>
>> [] +1 change the top level package name
>> []  0 I don't care
>> [] -1 keep the old name
>>
>
> -1
> But I don't know whether I'm allowed to vote... :-}

Everybody is allowed to vote (see
http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), but not all votes are
binding.

Note that negative votes from qualified voters are vetos that cannot be
overridden and prevent completely from doing the change until the caster
withdraws it. For this reason, they should normally have an explicit
reason so that discussion can go on and the proposal can be adapted or
explained. See the URL above.

In this case, I understand you are strongly against the change but I
would be happy to have a thorough explanation of your rationale. You can
even convince everybody else you are right and we should not do it!

Votes in the Apache way are often either non-issue when everybody agrees
or constructive discussions when there are different views.

Luc


>
> Best regards,
> Gilles
>
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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

Ted Dunning
In reply to this post by Dimitri Pourbaix
He also wants to avoid jar hell.  I have been there and sympathize with the
goal.

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Dimitri Pourbaix
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Luc wants to add the "2" just to
> warn the users about the lack of backward compatibility.
>



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Re: [VOTE] [math] top-level package name

papajdo
In reply to this post by Dimitri Pourbaix

On May 19, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Dimitri Pourbaix wrote:

> Ted,
>
>> +0.  Possibly changing to +1 as I think about it more.
>>
>> Dimitry,
>>
>> Is there an argument that you could see would change your mind?  What
>> specifically causes your -1?  Convenience?  Elegance?
>
> Well, for me, the release number is not part of the name of a package
> (of anything in general) eventhough I agree the combination of both is
> what uniquely identifies the product.  Luc wants to add the "2" just  
> to
> warn the users about the lack of backward compatibility.  That would
> simply add confusion.
>
> What is the policy in the other Apache projects?
In OpenJPA, the policy is to make compatibility-breaking changes in a  
major release. So if you have a change to a signature or behavior of a  
method that shipped in 1.2.0, you would have to make the change in a  
2.0.x release. The old behavior continues in the 1.2.x line.

Craig

>
>
> Regards,
> Dim.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dimitri Pourbaix                         *
> Institut d'Astronomie et d'Astrophysique *      Don't worry, be happy
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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